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Reducing choices in the Tau army list
Soren
 Post subject: Reducing choices in the Tau army list
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 9:14 am 
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Drop the Towers. If the Scorpionfish does not fit the list, the towers fit far less.

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CyberShadow
 Post subject: Reducing choices in the Tau army list
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 9:33 am 
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Actually, the fan made creations are usually placed into the list for a specific reason - to address a problem or balance issue. Therefore, they have a place in the force.

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zombocom
 Post subject: Reducing choices in the Tau army list
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 11:21 am 
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I do think there needs to be some pruning from the list. There seems to be altogether too many options, and the list is trying to be an all-in-one tau list, whereas it should represent a specific type of tau list.

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Reducing choices in the Tau army list
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 12:37 pm 
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I brought up pruning items from the Tau list, not because I felt that units were inappropriate, but because I felt that having less units on the main Tau list would allow for some uniqueness to be bestowed upon variant lists that others were working on (or might work on in the future). The fact that it might help balance the Tau list was a secondary concern.

One example I brought up were the Human Auxilliaries which IMO don't do much to make the Tau more balanced - they don't bring anything new to the list or fill a gap in the tactical options of the list.  If anything they are a thorn in the side since the discussions over them constantly put them at odds with Fire Warriors in terms of one being stronger than the other, or more expensive.  I could pull the references if anyone is interested but most Tau players know it to be true.

With this said there is no reason to fancy 'real units' over 'fan made' units since there would be a place for every unit in some list.  Classic variant lists could be made much like the Minervan list for the Imperial Guard or the Feral Orks for the Orks.

Another idea I had was to have a Core List for the Tau where blocks of auxilliary formations could be added like Vespids, Drones, Humans, Kroot, etc.  Each one of these blocks could be a partial list that could be tacked on to the main list, but you couldn't bring more than one block at a time (or perhaps you would get a modifier for bringing more than one type like Chaos).

These ideas I believe would make the Tau more characterful.  I politely disagree with CS :O that more units have no effect on balance issues - the simple fact is that more units leads to more min-maxing which leads to the list needing more tweaks.  This explains why the Tau have gone through so many changes.

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CyberShadow
 Post subject: Reducing choices in the Tau army list
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 1:01 pm 
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(Moscovian @ Feb. 14 2008,11:37)
QUOTE
I politely disagree with CS :O that more units have no effect on balance issues - the simple fact is that more units leads to more min-maxing which leads to the list needing more tweaks.  This explains why the Tau have gone through so many changes.

:)  That is not exactly what I said (or at least meant!).

My point was that the initial list discussed dropping units. I felt that the best reason to drop units was to enhance balance, and didnt see how those units selected had that effect.

It stands to reason that more units do affect the force.

If forced to decide, I would probably state that the current list does/should be a 'Tau heavy' force. This means that if cuts were made, I feel that they should come from the auxiliary units. This would mean dropping everything except Kroot Warriors, Shapers, Kroot Hounds and Human (including command), including the current restrictions placed on the human formation sizes and possibly similar restrictions on the Kroot formation size as well.

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Reducing choices in the Tau army list
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 5:55 pm 
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If forced to decide, I would probably state that the current list does/should be a 'Tau heavy' force. This means that if cuts were made, I feel that they should come from the auxiliary units. This would mean dropping everything except Kroot Warriors, Shapers, Kroot Hounds and Human (including command), including the current restrictions placed on the human formation sizes and possibly similar restrictions on the Kroot formation size as well.


What do you think about the idea of compartmentalizing the auxiliaries?

From the 4.4.2 list remove the following:
Gue?vesa
Kroot
Vespids
Heavy Drones
Sniper Drones
Sentry Drone Turrets

The list would function fine without any of them.  But for flavor allow the Tau to being Auxiliary Groups from one of three Groups:
Human Auxiliary: inlcude elements from the Gue?senshi v7.3 list
Drone Auxiliary: use all the special drones plus other models made by FW
Kroot/Vespid Auxiliary: use these elements and perhaps expand on them
Other?: Demiurg (from the fluff, not ePilgrims), heavy air caste, whatever is needed/desired.

Now you can limit their availability to whatever standard you see fit (1/3 of forces, ratio of formations, limit of one auxiliary per army, other ideas).   Balancing those small Auxiliary Components against the Core list will be easier than balancing them against the totality of the Tau list and it will even allow the Tau list to expand without getting a crazy number of units.  If you want to take a pure Tau army then you still have the option.  Do you love your drones a little too much?  Don't worry, they will still be there.  Everyone wins and the core list remains pure Tau.

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Soren
 Post subject: Reducing choices in the Tau army list
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 6:38 pm 
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Mosc, cool idea.....

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CyberShadow
 Post subject: Reducing choices in the Tau army list
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 11:36 pm 
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I really like this idea...  :blues:

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Tooninki
 Post subject: Reducing choices in the Tau army list
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 12:05 am 
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NOOOOO!!!
I have just based 17 units of Kroots and have 8 bases of Hvy Drones & 3 Sniper drones waiting... :p
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Dobbsy
 Post subject: Reducing choices in the Tau army list
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 3:21 am 
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I would like to keep the towers.

They serve an excellent purpose. Aiding in fire projection into rear board areas. Other armies get Indirect Fire arty. Tau don't....

What like Marines ? Though you could argue that Marines aren't long range weapon army that Tau should be.


Oh don't get me started on the Marines list, Hena :laugh:

I like the compartment idea too, Mosc'. You can call it the "Salt and Pepper" approach. Add flavour as you like... :laugh:

I think I prefer the 1 Auxilia per army idea the best.
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Ginger
 Post subject: Reducing choices in the Tau army list
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 6:08 pm 
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The idea of "Auxilliary" forces, Allies, minor factions or whatever else you want to call them is a really excellent idea for a number of reasons:-
  • It allows more control over the individual races
  • It permits the imposition of a little more structure where desired (number of X per Y ) and also permits the imposition of other balances (if you want X you must also take Y)
  • It allows a little more colour (inter-faction rivalries or modifiers as in the Chaos armies etc)
  • and finally it opens the possibility of wider combinations across races that some favour / remember from earlier versions of Epic
Obviously this needs to be used with caution, probably under some main limitation like Spaceships/Titans etc, but has a wealth of possibilities.

Nice one Mosc :blues:

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Soren
 Post subject: Reducing choices in the Tau army list
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 6:44 pm 
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and it allows: If you take this, you cannot take this :;):

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Onyx
 Post subject: Reducing choices in the Tau army list
PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 12:24 am 
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As long as all the bits that are available now would be available under the new structure, I think its a good idea aswell.

Good one Moscovian.

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