This kind of cross-army comparisons are largely useless, as the tactical and support options vary a great deal. What is a no-brainer statline in one list may be the red-headed stepchild of another.
Context matters!

Care to comment on my approach to FW tactics instead?

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8 Dark reapers cost the same as 12 bases of FW - of course they're better!

Also, comparing them to probably the best FF/shooty infantry in the game is pretty unfair.

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

I'd still rather have 8 stands of DR than 12 FWs though.

The thing is, Fire Warriors *should* be giving Dark Reapers a run for their money in regard to "best FF/shooty", at least at close range... the artificial limit on FF *really* hampers Fire Warriors, unlike anything else in the Tau army, which have the guns to get the jorb done.

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Chroma: As I've said several times however, a direct translation from 40k for Tau isn't feasible, since their low CC abilities are much more of a balancing factor in a 40k environment. A direct translation would have to be significantly more expensive (relatively speaking) in Epic.

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

I think Fire Warriors should be on a par for firepower with Storm Troopers, Dire Avengers, Tactical Marines- comparing them to Dark Reapers (and by extension Devastators, etc) is taking their firepower too far the other way.

Having an 'artificial limit'- i.e. a rule stuck in contrary to the background or way the army is intended to fight still strikes me as highly counter-constructive.

And, if they're significantly, i.e., proportionally, more useful, I'd be willing to pay that price.

I took Mechanized Fire Warriors in my latest playtest, please, take a look.

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Armor units suck in assault in almost every army, so allowing "just" the infantry improved FF effectively removes the entire design concept.  It's unavoidable that cheap 4+FF troops mean Tau can be a wicked assault army.

If you want to make the case for that, fine, but own up to it.

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Neal

Who said anything about "cheap"?  And it's a single type of Infantry Unit in the entire army, the Fire Warriors, at least that's all I'd really want to see...

There's lots of armies that have cheap/effective firefighting vehicles and light vehicles... Orks and Eldar have *scads*, you'd still have to be careful with everything else... and the Fire Warriors would still get massacred in close combat.

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25 point Firewarriors is cheap enough to make a FF horde.  As has been pointed out several times, they would be comparable to IG Stormtroopers or, when mechanized, Eldar Guardian/Heavy Weapon/Wave Serpent mech infantry.

There's lots of armies that have cheap/effective firefighting vehicles and light vehicles... Orks and Eldar have *scads*, you'd still have to be careful with everything else... and the Fire Warriors would still get massacred in close combat.

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Neal

I would have to believe that, if their stats were increased, there'd be a comparable increase in their point value.

As it now stands, I'd much rather take an AMHC for 375 points over a Mech Fire Warrior Cadre with Skyray or Ethereal for the same cost... I just get more *use* out of the AMHC.

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Which still stikes me as a problem with the AMHC or Hammerheads themselves rather than FW/

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

Well... I think I'd also rather take a 6-strong Crisis Cadre for that 375!  

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But if we accept Hena's suggestion of 1 AP4+ 30cm shot and 1 AP5+ 15cm disrupt shot then FW become a much better choice than 6 crisis suits for the same price. 8 FW's + Devilfish + Skyray gives you 12 AP4+, 8 AP 5+ disrupt, 6 AT5+ and 1 AP5+ ignore cover. As well as AA and markerlighhts. There is more risk, but as has been noted several times in this thread FW's are not bad in FF compared to most infantry.

since I doubt any of you will be changing each others minds on the FF/no-FF thing anytime soon, I thought we could look at some other FW related topics:

1.  Leaders for FW formations.

I think it is a shame that they can't get them easily and thought we could do something about that.  Here are some options:

1.  A 'Bonded' FW stand w/ the Leader ability.
2.  Allowing the Networked drones upgrades on FW Devilfish (seems fine, but doesn't work if you want them on foot.)
3.  Making the Shas'el a unit rather than a character so you can add a single stand to the FWs and get Leader
4.  Removing the 0-1 choice from the Ethereal, while probably down-grading its effectiveness at the same time.

And I am sure there are others.  What do you think would work or is feasible?  Is it even necessary?

2.  One of the points Ginger tried to make earlier in the thread is that FWs would be more effective in their Devilfish.  The devilfish upgrade is relatively expensive though.  Could we at all downpower the Devilfish some and make them a cheaper option?  Is the ML requirement in place now enough for that already?