Predictably, (due to my stubborness up to this point) my initial reaction was not positive...

BUT
The more I think about the MW (Light Rail Cannons?) armed Moray, the more it grows on me.
The Moray does become a Jack of all Trades with these stats.

Boost the speed up to 30cm and I like it a lot. It's more fragile than a Warhound (harder for it to hide and I like the critical proposed by shmitty) but probably packs a slightly heavier punch, being able to fire it's MW shots every turn (high risk/reward option).

To be totally honest, I'd rather 1TK(D3) attack instead of 2xMW ones...
With the harsher critical it makes up for the few Morays that would get blown up before getting a shot off but I find myself more open to the MW idea than I thought I would be.

I'd like to see Honda's ideas before making my final call (for what it's worth).

However it ends up, I'd like to see the Moray priced so that it would be possible to take 2 flights of AX-1-0 (eg 350pts per flight)and a Moray (eg 300pts) in a 3000pt game.

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Barracuda


Barracuda Superiority Fighters
Fighter
Save 6+
Seeker Missile | 45cm | AT5+ | Guided Missiles, Fixed Forward Arc
Aircraft Ion Cannon | 30cm | AP4+/AT5+/AA5+ | Fixed Forward Arc
Burst Cannons | 15cm | AP4+/AA6+ | -

175 for 2 and +75 for third.


Barracuda                 2 for 175
Fighter-bomber
Save 6+
Ion Cannon 30cm, AP4+/AT5+,  Fixed Forward Arc
Burst Cannons 15cm, AA5+
Missile Pod 30cm AP5+/AT6+/AA5+ Fixed Forward Arc

Proposal:

Barracuda Air Superiority Fighter
Fighter
Save 5+
Aircraft Ion Cannon | 30cm | AP4+/AT5+/AA5+ | Fixed Forward Arc
Burst Cannons | 15cm | /AA6+ | -
2 for 150



We go through this round a little light on this one, as I am proposing
leaving out the third aircraft on this round. The goal will be to test
this out and later revist three aircraft formations. However, the Barracuda will focus on air superiority, with any ground attacks as incidental...much like fighters are now.



TigerShark              
Bomber
Save 4+
Twin-Linked Ion Cannon 45cm, AP3+/AT4+  Fixed Forward Arc
Burst Cannons 15cm, AA6+
Twin-Linked Missile Pod 30cm AP4+/AT5+ Forward Arc
Seeker Missiles  45cm  2x AT5+  Fixed Forward Arc, Guided Missile
2 for 250

Focus here is on AP and supplemental AT. The TS has minor AA, but it
is a bomber and should not expect to be effective as a fighter, even
if it is as fast as the Barracuda.


AX-1-0

TigerShark AX-1-0            2 for 350
Bomber
Save 4+
Twin-Linked Railcannon 45cm, MW3+  Fixed Forward Arc, Titan Killer (D3)
Burst Cannons 15cm, AA6+
2 x Seeker Missiles  45cm  AT5+  Fixed Forward Arc, Guided Missile

Note: The AX-1-0 contains a Networked Markerlight for targeting the
on board seeker missiles.

Focus here is on TK and AT.


Question: Should we allow the AX seekers to use other MLs? Seems like we
ought to, but I'd like to hear what think.



Manta                           700 Points
20cm Skimmer
Save 5+
Twin-Linked Railcannon  90cm, MW2+  Fixed Forward Arc, Titan Killer (D3)
3x Twin-Linked, Long-Barreled Ion Cannon 90cm, AP3+/AT4+  Fixed Forward Arc
4x Twin-Linked, Long-Barreled Burst Cannons 30cm, AP4+/AA6+
Twin-Linked Missile Pod 45cm AP4+/AT5+ Fixed Forward Arc

DC 8, Reinforced Armour, 5+ Tau Deflector, Always Popped Up, Transport (unchanged), Planetfall

Critical:  The Tau Deflector is disabled and is unavailable for the rest of the game, further
criticals add 1 point of damage.

Questions:

1. Why did the range on the Railcannon get set to 105cm? Is that from a porting 40K stats? Should
it be 90 cms?

2. Should the movement be consistent with the Moray? If so what? 20 cms? That seems very slow to
me. What about 25 cms? What does the Elar Vampire do or is it an aircraft? I'm Ok bumping up the
points if that is warranted per the, "It is what it is".

Moray - 300 pts



2 x [rail name] | 75cm | MW3+ | Macro Weapon, Fixed Forward Arc
Ion cannons | 60cm | 2 x AP4+/AT5+ | Fixed Forward Arc
2 x Seeker Missiles | 75cm | AT5+ | Guided, Forward Arc

I'm actually Ok with this as Hena proposed. Any serious objections? It looks to be close to half of the Manta. Whatever speed we settle on for the Manta will be the same for the Moray.

So, I'll open this up for a bit of comments. Short of someone barfing on their monitor, I think the Barracuda, Tigershark, and AX are where I'd like us to start testing from.

Regarding the Moray and Manta we should decide is that workable, and will it not introduce an imbalance to the list. If they seem a "tad" expensive or not quite capable enough, I'm Ok with that for this round of testing. As stated before, I'd rather we error on the side of caution than overpower the list.

Have at it!

_________________
Honda

"Remember Taros? We do"

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

[delurks]

I can´t believe my eyes: There is something of a consensus forming on the MW-Moray?

It get´s even better as I like the proposal as well and agree with Onyx both on upping speed for the Moray and Manta in addition to fitting two formations of AX-1-0 and a Moray in a 3000 pts list.

Keep up the good work everyone!


[relurks]

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Ok, I did a little bit of editing for consistency:

1. Burst guns are AA6+ all the way across

2. Barracudas are now 150 for a pair

3. I am inclined to error on the side of caution regarding Moray/Manta movement and leave it
at 20 cms for this round of testing and see how that shakes out. In all of my times of
fielding Morays, the 20 cm movement was one of the more frustrating issues with the unit.

Not that that's a bad thing for a Tau player   , just inconvenient.

4. Manta Railcannon are now range 90 cm

5. I understand that the "Long Barrel" label is cumbersome, but that is how FW (the creators) separated them from standard 40K versions. They did the same thing with Autocannons. I wouldn't get too hung up on the name, players will quickly shift to using the common name.

Hena: Regarding Elysian aircraft, Shmitty has graciously agreed to look at the aircraft stats and we will undertake a similar discussion over on the IG board when we are ready.

_________________
Honda

"Remember Taros? We do"

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

Now that Barracuda has really one shot to ground attack, I do suggest upping save to 5+.

_________________
Honda

"Remember Taros? We do"

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

ROTFL.LOL.BHFTMN...Holy Cow, you blew me away on that one...

We did have some really "interesting" discussions in the past, didn't we?  

Anyway, after we get these guys nailed down, I'm going to open up a thread to attack Special Rules, the fallback thing, and drones. So hang on, we have another burst coming before we settle down for some testing.

Cheers,

_________________
Honda

"Remember Taros? We do"

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

I would much prefer to see the Barracuda with only a save of 6+ and the Missile Pod attack.  I don't understand the reasoning for it being tougher than a Thunderbolt, when the fluff describes exactly the opposite.  I am a big proponent of us setting up the models to represent what they are and the Barracuda has Missile Pods on it, that I really think should be represented.  All of the Tau Air Caste units as designed by Forge World, have a Missile Pod and Twin Burst Cannons, even the Orca.  I really like the consistent theme in design and think we should go with it.  The attack is not so strong to un balance the Barracuda and it is consistent with other armies.

The same argument for the AX-1-0.  and realistically, it could use that one extra attack to be worth the 350 per formation.

Tigershark and Manta look great.  The 105cm was a suggestion to match 40k, but it is not a big deal either way really and probably a good change for balance purposes.

Moray - 300 pts

Skimmer 20cm
Armour 5+

2 x Heavy Railguns| 75cm | MW3+ | Macro Weapon, Fixed Forward Arc
Ion cannons | 60cm | 2 x AP4+/AT5+ | Fixed Forward Arc
2 x Seeker Missiles | 75cm | AT5+ | Guided, Forward Arc

Always Popped Up, Tau Deflector, DC 3
Critical:  The weapon capacitors overload destroying the Moray.

I could see upping the Moray to speed 25cm, but probably not more than that.  The Tau are a mobile/maneuverable army, but not really that fast.

Stay away too long and the world changes.
And they say a week is a long time in politics

Barracuda
Going light is Ok by me, and 150 is reasonable for the stats.
An alternative that might (just) be worth considering at some point would be the 'Fighter-bomber' version that includes the missile-pods but costs 175-200. Less manoeuverable due to additional weight, but packs a better ground attack capability.

Tigershark Strike Craft
I remain concerned about having multiple weapons with 45cm range. No other Bomber has that, and this allows the a/c to stand-off and still get hefty attacks in and it also infringes on the AX-1-0 niche. So I would strongly recommend the Ion cannons being 30cm. If sentiment is strongly in favour of the 'long-range' version, the cost must be raised to 300 each as a minimum.
Also I still don't like the idea of 4x formations @250 each. Might I suggest 255 for the 'short range' Ion cannon to prevent this?
Finally, the lack of internal ML makes the stats intruiging when compared to the intended role of primary AP with supplementary AT:-
AP ~2.3 hits (4 weapons)
AT ~1.6 hits (4 weapons but with possible extra 1.3 hits off 4x ML)

A possible alternative here might be to drop the Seeker missiles in favour of an extra Twin linked Ion cannon. So the weapons would be

Burst Cannons                   (15cm) AA6+
2x Twin linked Ion cannon (30cm) AP3+/AT4+  Fixed Forward Arc
Twin-linked missile pods    (30cm) AP4+/AT5+  Fixed Forward Arc
cost 300 points.

Gives me my desired shorter ranges and increased points cost, drops the internal ML ambiguity and the stats that are more in line with other bombers:-
AP ~3.6 hits (6 weapons)
AT ~2.3 hits (6 weapons)

Tigershark AX-1-0
Really like this  though I still think it a bit over-priced, and feel 300-325 is more appropriate.
I would allow other formations to provide ML for the AX-1-0 weapons, but it does raise the question of whether the AX-1-0 can ML for other formations - I would suggest that this should not be allowed.

Manta
Not really considered this yet, but I think we need to tie in movement to the weapon ranges. So if a 90cm Railgun is used, 20cm move allows 130cm engage which is longer than other titans of this class and perhaps getting excessive with APU skimmer.
OTOH, a 75cm 'heavy' railgun matches other titans capabilities and is consistent internally with the Moray.
The same is true for the 'long barrelled' Ion cannon. Suggest these become 75cm as well.

'MW' Moray
Looking good! 20cm move and 75cm MW 'light' railgun gives right kind of deep threat.
BUT
I am concerned about the other weapon ranges.
60cm Ion cannon is OTT (IMHO) because this permits the Moray a single move deep strike capability of 4 weapons (6 if the Tank or WE is markerlit), unlike other 'scout' titans that have to double to achieve this. So, I would suggest dropping the range to 45cm.
The same is true of the Seeker missile. Could this also drop to 60cm??

_________________
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Vitai lampada
Sir Hemry Newbolt

[quote="Ginger,17 Jan. 2009, 21:30 "][/quote]
Ginger, you seem really concerned about the Tau's weapon ranges being longer than other armies.  WHile it is a fair concern, it is with reason.  Partly due to fluff and partly to 40k stats, the range is just a reflection of those.  It does not however come without limitations.  The Tau do not have artillery.  The Tau have nothing like a Basilisk or Manticore that can fire 240 or 300cm without even having LOS.  The Tau have poor engagement abilities and need their space so to speak.  Your concerns are valid, but they are offset by other areas and that is part of what makes them Tau.

I am also curious about your familiarity with the rest of the Tau list?  You have made suggestions on weapon changes that would effect many units outside of this discussion.  The Hammerhead has an engage range of 125cm by your definition, which is farther than the Leman Russ, I don't think anyone feels that should change.  In general a Tau equivalent should slightly out range its Imperial analog, just like Eldar should be faster or SM should be tougher to break.