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Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?

The_Real_Chris

Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?

Posted: Sat May 20, 2006 12:45 pm

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Like the squat war of the world thing

Tell the studio!

As to titan hunt/not to titan hunt. The Mantas primary target is starships. Can it also do the far smaller titans?

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Steele

Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?

Posted: Sat May 20, 2006 1:16 pm

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Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 6:40 am
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Location: Duisburg , Germany

Quote (The_Real_Chris @ 20 May 2006 (13:45))

Like the squat war of the world thing

Tell the studio!

As to titan hunt/not to titan hunt. The Mantas primary target is starships. Can it also do the far smaller titans?

Yes it can and does!!!!

Steele

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Honda

Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?

Posted: Sat May 20, 2006 1:20 pm

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Location: Katy, Republic of Texas

As to titan hunt/not to titan hunt. The Mantas primary target is starships. Can it also do the far smaller titans?

However, the Tau don't send one Manta after a starship, they send many.

However, the issue suddenly springing up seems to be whether or not the Manta is capable of going after Titans? I would say that there is a perfectly justifiable reason for that assumption.

Also, keep in mind, the Tau were surprised and did struggle with the titans during the Damocles campaign until ?they started marshalling forces capable of taking them on, i.e. Mantas.

/*HISTORICALFICTION ON

Shas'o: H'vns to B'tsy, those huge walking machines are spanking our forces quite handily, O'h what can we do?

Aun Li: Have you thought about using those seriously large flying things over there with the huge guns?

Shas'o: No my Aun, their guns are too effective for such small devices, we must search for another answer. Conventional wisdom counsels against this path.

Aun Li: you give, and you give, and they still don't get it. What did we save you guys for? Oh, that's right, the Greater Good.

Aun Li: Perhaps you could try one or two in combat just to see if there is some potential...

Shas'o: Yes my Aun, if you insist, but I shall be very surprised if they are able to do anything at all.

And the rest as they say, is...

/*HISTORICALFICTION OFF

Seems rather silly doesn't it? ?

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Steele

Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?

Posted: Sat May 20, 2006 1:31 pm

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Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 6:40 am
Posts: 423
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It is not silly, it is ridiculous. Try sticking a Titan with, let?s say 6 Cadres of Firewarriors, they should be enough to bring the Machine to it?s knees.:p

Steele

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Xisor

Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?

Posted: Sat May 20, 2006 3:12 pm

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Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 10:11 pm
Posts: 515

Quote (The_Real_Chris @ 20 May 2006 (12:45))

Like the squat war of the world thing

Tell the studio!

Oi! My idea

Regarding the Manta...

Let's recap for a second:
Something about it is off, yes?

We came up with
- It's a bit costly for what people use it for in games: price to high
- It's not reliable on the initiative front: move to 1+
- It'd be cool if it could 'free planetfall' as it helps play to the described style in the fluff *and* means you don't need to take a spacecraft transport.
- Weapons need tweaking maybe
- It's not 'Titan' enough for people to like it
- It's cooler than a Titan in most respects for others
- People still don't take it.

So, if I may pose a few questions to see if I can prod brains or something:
1- Weapons. The Missiles were mentioned already: is there anything else people'd be comfortable seeing/uncomfortable not seeing on it?
2- What do people like about it so far, what appeals to folks about it as it stands?
3- Would you be comfortable in upgrading it stat-wise, like giving it more DC, or adding a shield on top of the deflector?

Okay, they're not proper prosposals by a longshot, but just to see what folks think.

Cheers,
Xisor

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The_Real_Chris

Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?

Posted: Sat May 20, 2006 3:17 pm

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Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:45 pm
Posts: 8139
Location: London

I meant the 'it can do spaceships, what abut titans' to be 'it can do spaceships, what hope have titans

'

Actually now I realise how the shield works and with 1+ init I'm happy to use it. Sure I reckon its going down, but this will be the consequence of me shreding the opposition until it does.

And what goes up must come down eventually

As long as I shred the enemy BTS first reckon I'm onto a winner!

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Steele

Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?

Posted: Sat May 20, 2006 5:12 pm

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It?s almost perfectly fine for me. I love the model, if I fought larger battles i?d be happy to field it every time. So only the actual Points Cost hindered me doing so, as any larger Titan would do. Past in the old days I wanted a mid-size class SC but JG didn?t want it at the time, maybe now?

Cheers!
Steele

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Xisor

Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?

Posted: Sat May 20, 2006 10:42 pm

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Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 10:11 pm
Posts: 515

I think the time is now for the Demiurg proposal...

Not an 'in-between' support craft, but a bona-fide titan-equivalent. I'll see if I can't knock something up[rules/fluff wise] over the next few days just to see...

[Medium Support Craft, I doubt it. IMO it's pushing the boundary with Morays, I'd agree with Jervis on the 'anything smaller' point...]

Xisor

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Gotchaye

Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?

Posted: Sun May 21, 2006 12:39 am

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Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2006 1:25 am
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What if the Demiurg thing were the big Titan-equivalent while the Manta goes down to more Reaver-level, at around 600-700 points? I tend to agree with Wargamer that the Manta shouldn't be on the same level as the Warlord.

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Honda

Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?

Posted: Sun May 21, 2006 3:11 am

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Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:44 pm
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Location: Katy, Republic of Texas

I hate to pop anyone's Demiurges for a walking titan, but I believe that from Day 1, there was word on high that neither the Tau or the Necrons will ever get a walking titan...no matter whose it is.

Seriously, I have no desire to see Demiurg anything in this list.

The fact that the list is already polluted with a number of useless halfbreed races is more than enough thank you.

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Ilushia

Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?

Posted: Sun May 21, 2006 3:25 am

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Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 10:50 am
Posts: 1189

Quote (Gotchaye @ 21 May 2006 (00:39))

What if the Demiurg thing were the big Titan-equivalent while the Manta goes down to more Reaver-level, at around 600-700 points? ?I tend to agree with Wargamer that the Manta shouldn't be on the same level as the Warlord.

Why shouldn't the Manta be in the same league as the Warlord? Just because the manta CAN transport troops doesn't make that it's primary use to the army. Emperor Class Titans under the old rules also carried troops, as I remember it. But surely you won't claim that it's primary mission was to carry troops to battle will you? So why the opposition to making the Manta be capable of shooting up enemy titans?

I for one like the idea of the Tau using close air support to kill enemy titans. Low-flying vehicles which can put out a lot of firepower at long range to allow them to flatten enemy war machines. Why the feeling that this thing should be regailed to being a transport vehicle instead of a titan hunter? As it is I'd consider this thing to be a general purpose machine of much butt-kick. Point it at anything you feel like and it'll make a mess out of the formation. It just happens to be better at shooting titans then most other Tau things (Frankly to kill Titans I'd much rather have a pair of Morays, but the Manta makes a nice vehicle for that as well).

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Gotchaye

Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?

Posted: Sun May 21, 2006 4:48 am

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Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2006 1:25 am
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There's a rather lengthy back and forth over on the Tau Online forums (in the Tau section, I believe) where this viewpoint is articulated in detail, but in short:

The Manta's primary purpose is to transport troops. It was doing that quite happily until the Tau ran into Titans and needed something to deal with them. The Manta was the closest thing they had, so they threw it in there. It just seems insulting to all of the Imperial fluff about God-Machines that the Tau's stopgap stands up to the Warlord.

As well, in BFG it's the equivalent of a squadron of bombers. Several races use the same bombers in both BFG and Epic, and no squadron of bombers comes close to the Manta in Epic.

Its current rules just strike me as something arbitrarily designed in order to give the Tau an 850pt Titan. Do the Tau even need that? If they do, can't they have something a bit more characterful and a bit less forced, perhaps drawing on alien allies to fill gaps in their own military?

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Ilushia

Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?

Posted: Sun May 21, 2006 5:41 am

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Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 10:50 am
Posts: 1189

Quote (Gotchaye @ 21 May 2006 (04:48))

There's a rather lengthy back and forth over on the Tau Online forums (in the Tau section, I believe) where this viewpoint is articulated in detail, but in short:

The Manta's primary purpose is to transport troops. ?It was doing that quite happily until the Tau ran into Titans and needed something to deal with them. ?The Manta was the closest thing they had, so they threw it in there. ?It just seems insulting to all of the Imperial fluff about God-Machines that the Tau's stopgap stands up to the Warlord.

As well, in BFG it's the equivalent of a squadron of bombers. ?Several races use the same bombers in both BFG and Epic, and no squadron of bombers comes close to the Manta in Epic.

Its current rules just strike me as something arbitrarily designed in order to give the Tau an 850pt Titan. ?Do the Tau even need that? ?If they do, can't they have something a bit more characterful and a bit less forced, perhaps drawing on alien allies to fill gaps in their own military?

Keep in mind time-scale here also. The current Tau list is a third-phase expansion list. The encounters with the Imperials is second-phase expansion... The Tau have, supposedly, been working virtually non-stop since the Imperium retreated on ways to deal with their titans and super-heavy tanks. Is it so unthinkable that Manta Railcannons might have improved in order to fight such units? What started as a stop-gap may have developed into a full-fledged weapon system all in it's own right.

On the squadrons of bombers bit: How big is a squadron of bombers in BFG compared to Epic? In Epic a squad of bombers is typically 2-3 bombers. A squad in BFG is likely 10-15. While a Manta might certainly be as strong as 6-8 bombers (Almost certainly is for most races) it's likely only on-par with something like 10-15 bombers. This one goes with the 'vaguness of system' rules. How many THawks make up a formation? Surely you can't claim that a THawk formation has the same number of units in it as a Phoenix formation does can you?

I like the idea that the Manta is the Tau's big-bad-destroyer. It feels right. It's their largest atmospheric-used craft, and it only makes sense they'd mount the heaviest weapons and armor on it (It's a HUGE target after all!) and since you'd expect for enemy Titans to preferentially target them over other vehicles, both due to their size and the cargo they usually carry, it only seems like a logical step to give them weapons which are designed to fight those same titans.

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Xisor

Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?

Posted: Sun May 21, 2006 5:08 pm

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Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 10:11 pm
Posts: 515

A few things:

1- I don't believe it's stated that it's the 'biggest atmospheric craft'
2- The Manta was developed as a quick method of delivering troops from Orbit to Ground in the Tau'n campaign. It's pre-1st phase expansion. The Tau'n campaign was against Orks, and Orks are fairly heavy anyway. If it's not squiggoths it's Gargants and Stompas, the Tau are likely to have encountered things of this magnitude since just after the first set foot amidst the stars, they just hadn't seen them deployed as a professional standing force that is the epitome of a race's abilities before, as the Titan Legions are. Mantas aren't a 'stop-gap' measure, they're the Tau's premier War Engine, literally.
3- As said before: Mantas take on spacecraft. What chance do Titans have?
4- "As it is I'd consider this thing to be a general purpose machine of much butt-kick". I heartily agree. It is it's own beast. It's not a titan, it's not a gargant, it's not an Inquisitorial Fortress, it's not an Eldar Zoomy-Titan. It's a Manta. It's got to be worthwhile[ie viable] as a Manta first and foremost.

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CyberShadow

Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?

Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 1:14 pm

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I go away for a weekend... and look what I come back to!

Seriously, I will go through this thread later, but I did want to assure everyone that, while I find the alternative Demiurg concepts 'interesting' I have no intention of upsetting the grand scheme of things by changing unit roles drastically. That said, I do have an open mind on discussion happening here, I will just require quite a lot of convincing before things are changed so much.

More soon.

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