The issue onyx has is not with the outcome of the fight, nor the number of casualties the marines caused.

The issue onyx portrays is that 1700 points of tau could not kill 450 points of marines in a firefight.

But without all the support etc. etc. etc. and with average dice they would kill all bar probably 1 stand and all for the cost of just 1 point of damage to the Manta.

eh? the amount they kill is irrespective of the number of support formations the marines have though.

They'll still only kill 2-3 stands and 1 landraider

Then add in outnumbering bonus' and the Tau are on + 4 or 5 for the roll off.
If 3 total kills on the marines then 1 runs away due to hackdowns.
If 4 total kills on the marines then none run away due to hackdowns.

Thats a far cry from being impossible for 1700 points of Tau to beat 450 points of marines.

ah, of course forgot about that bit

Also two units were land raiders so it would take a statistical average of twenty four hits to kill the formation outright

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marines can ff marines and win, too. Context makes it very clear what I meant.

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Completely lost me there E&C..

What does "marines can ff marines and win, too" mean in this context?

It means they're not "better" than Marines, of course :-)
They ff "as well as" (but not "better than") marines, heh. Like ff4 tau would... They (marines) win when fighting marines thru tactics not simply being "better"...

Quite logical :-)

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Right.. so we are still arguing over something I have already explained was unintentional

Am on phone on different continent to normal... Cogent debate most unlikely!

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Ah.. maybe we'd best leave it till you're in-continent as normal... (j/k!)

Umm guys I think you are missing the point here. Onyx doesn't give two hoots about what the return fire was. His point is directed squarely at the base FF of 1700 vs 450 and what the Tau actually did in that base engagement. Ignore all the extraneous support fire as the result wasn't what he cared about.

Thanks Dobbsy.

dptdexys - If over half the Tau army (wich includes units with TK an MW weaponry) had been able to wipe out 1 Heavy Tactical formation, the Engagement would have stalled and the fight is over. Support units are completely null at this point. Because the Tau could not kill the Hvy Tac formation (with basically statistically accurate dice) then the outcome was never in doubt and not the point of this discussion.
The fact that a Manta, Fire Warriors, Pathfinders, Crisis Suits and Hammerheads could not kill the Heavy Tactical formation (in a FF Engagement) is a real problem for the present list.

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It would be a problem, except you could have shot them to death quite easily instead.