Pretty read all threads here, just more than once....your view is not radical enough I agree  

Elysians are highly experimental, more than TAU ever where. Had the same experience with my Minervans using the first list ever published and some poor LatD. Turn 1 finishing move Piledriver. Didn´t even notice the game started and a lone Deamon Prince and a couple of Cultists were left. (beside a more than frustrated friend    )

Looking forward to CS new list....and then iterate again....

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To back up Hena his Marine list is a standard Marine list - not a maxed out 4 warhound, 3 thawk, terminator list, - so basically just a competitive list - which had finished mid-table the previous day. It beat the maxed out Tau list.

Making wild statements like Instant win buttons just discredits valid points you may have about elements of the Tau list.

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maybe I'll get Mark_Logue to recount his game with an Elyssian based list which basically destroyed an Eldar army by the end of turn 1...

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Hena's list was competitive - ie it had strong elements to it, but it wasn't maxed out like the Tau was supposed to be.

I thought the Tau were supposed to be unbeatable - or is that only if the opponent doesn't choose anything decent in his list?

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I think I see your problem with the SG list. You use it to build the ultra-shooty Crisis + Moray list and say that "this will win everything except for Marines". You say that "Kroot are non-optimized" and "FW infantry is non-optimized". However, people who do use Kroot and FW and whatnot actually do have a chance against T-hawks and Terminators. The problem may not be the SG list. Instead, it might be your one-sided view of that list.

or in fact s group playing style which favouts shooting over assaults

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I dunno...

... I've come along to two Epic tourneys now, came fifth(Sixth? I forget) and fourth (Ie: I'm not an overly crap player), and I have a sub-20% winning average against Jstr's SG Tau.

That's using Marines, Steel Legion, Death Korps, and Tyranids... only airborne Marines tend to mess up the Tau's day, in my hands.


My ratio against FW Tau so far is a *lot* more healthy, and importantly, with the FW list's style, we're having fun using the Tau again.

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I don't think that describes my group... you've seen Pulsar's Eldar list, and even my own games tend to be won via Engagements (With my short-ranged IG army).

Even Jstr (Our Tau player) switched to the FW army list, because he thought it offered more possibilities for Engagements.

We like Engagements.

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It really wasn't a maxed out Tau list, at least it was nothing like the ones we used. When questioned he did say he didn't bother with the GM list and so on. So no where near optimised. Its a damn shame I had to head home to my daughter or I would have delighted in showing Hena the maxed out one. And really air assaulting marines with maxed warhounds don't worry it much.

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- Statistically you have been really unlucky. Thats 13 1/3 hits, and after saves just under three points of damage on a deflector shielded 4+ RA target.
- The hero has two pin points 2+TKD3 to hit warengines, The 2x3MW6+ GM's are optional extras that can hit whatever if lit. Really they are thunderhawk and similar killers, shouldn't waste them on non we tagets!
- Manta' them. Besides the bucket loads of RT does not appear much outide siegers now in tournies.
- Thats really strong on their current stats.

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Why is that TRC?

Also no one seemed to want to answer my previous question..

What do people feel is appropriate costing then for a +1 to hit given Indirect firing units get a +1 to hit targets without LOS for free?

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TRC - A Moray only has 5+RA + Deflector (why didn't you include that in your example above?) Vultures really do make a mess of them no matter what your statistics say.
I'm well aware of what Hero's can do and their abilities will be reduced if Markerlight Turrets are removed from the list (as some want and as my example CLEARLY stated).

I have no issue with changing the Deflector to 5+. It's not a game breaker and is still something different for Tau (which I quite like - Special Rules word limit be damned   ).

I think I read somewhere here about removing the AA attack from the Ion Cannon (on aircraft). I think that would help address the superior air abilities of the Tau.
Just an idea (I have definately come round to TRC's thoughts on the Tigersharks).

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He didn't. Even said he wasn't going to do 'x' or 'y' combo as it was boring/simply too good. Did he even have a Hero?

I find the best forces are the all skimmer (and lots of tank) hordes (no CC to worry about and massive firepower) - the Tau armoured regiment as it were, the GM horde and the air supperiority force with a ground element designed to knock off flak.

Tau aircraft are off, both internally and externally. They are also in the case of the TS at least, tougher than their 40k counter parts, something only the Tau do!

Far better would be

Barracuda
Fighter-bomber
Save 6+
Seeker Missile Battery, 45cm, AT6+, Guided Missiles
Ion Cannon, 30cm, AP4+/AT4+/AA5+, Fixed Forward Arc
Burst Cannons, 15cm, AP4+/AA6+
Barracuda Squadron, 2-3 Barracuda Superiority Fighters, 75 points each
In comparison to a thunderbolt longer range, better AT, better AP and gives up a pip of AA for a 360 degree defence. Overall a better plane but Tau I thought were supposed to have the edge? (If to good would I guess have to become 2 for 175, which is a shame as harder to have a neat 2-3 squadron option!) Note it is a fighter bomber not a fighter as it has considerable wieght in stores and less speed than a thunderbolt giving it no advantage on a ground attack in my opinon, instead it gets two weapons that aren't fixed forward.

If you wanted a better plane
Seeker Missile Battery, 45cm, AT6+, Guided Missiles
Ion Cannon, 30cm, AP4+/AT4+/AA6+, Fixed Forward Arc
2 x Burst Cannon, 15cm, AP4+/AA6+
This though would be 2 for 175 at least


Tiger Shark
Bomber
Save 4+
2 x Seeker Missile Batteries, 45cm, AT6+, Guided Missiles
Twin-linked Ion Cannons, 30cm, AP3+/AT3+/AA4+, Fixed Forward Arc
Burst Cannons, 15cm, AP4+/AA6+
Notes: Transport (may carry three of the following units: Gun Drones, Heavy Drones, Turrets); the Tiger Shark cannot land (and hence not air assault or embark troops) but can disembark Drones in the normal way after its approach move is completed.
Tiger Shark Strike Squadron, 2 Tiger Shark Strike Craft, 200 points

Tiger Shark AX-1-0
Bomber
Save 4+
2 x Seeker Missile Batteries, 45cm, AT6+, Guided Missiles
Twin-linked Heavy Railcannon, 30cm, MW3+, Titan Killer (D3), Fixed Forward Arc
Burst Cannons, 15cmAP4+/AA6+
Tiger Shark AX-1-0 Squadron, 2 Tiger Shark AX-1-0, 250 points


Tiger Shark AX-2-2 and Remora Drone Stealth Fighters
War Engine, Fighter
Save 6+
3 x Seeker Missile Batteries, 45cm, AT6+, Guided Missiles
3 x Twin-linked Burst Cannons, 15cm, AP3+/AA5+
Notes: Damage Capacity 2. Critical Hit Effect: The Drone Control Relay is destroyed and the AX-2-2 aborts leaving the game. The aircraft counts as destroyed for victory point purposes
Tiger Shark AX-2-2, 1 Tiger Shark AX-2-2 and Remora drones, 150 points

Orca Dropship
War Engine, Bomber
Save 4+
Seeker Missile Battery, 45cm, AT6+, Guided Missiles
Twin-linked Burst Cannon, 15cm, AP3+/AA5+
Notes: Damage Capacity 2. Critical Hit Effect: The Orca’s control surfaces are damaged. The pilot loses control and the Orca crashes to the ground. The Orca and all models on board are destroyed. Planetfall, Transport (may carry up to ten infantry units with battlesuits taking two spaces each and an additional two units of drones OR 6 turrets)
Orca Dropship, 125 points

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Because I prefer Manta?

I didn't say anything about the Moray, I was just surprised to hear about Vultures messing up Manta.

As to 300 points of Vultures vs Moray
8 AV2+ hits on 5+ RA with a deflector is just under 2 1/2 hits (2 and 38/81)
Though of course you also have a strategy advantage and with the current deflectors are less worried about deathstrikes than other races.
Note with a straight 5+ invulnerable it is just under two points of damage (1 79/81).

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"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x