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Tau Air

 Post subject: Tau Air
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 10:22 am 
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To keep general issues from the Orca and A-10 discussions I thought it best to have a 'general concerns/abusability thread' seperate to the playtest reports and the like. Incidentally I started this some months ago but only got as far as the Barracuda before being told to shut up :)

My general concern with the Tau list is two fold.

1 - They have the best planes (and bloody good flak). This doesn't sit right with me. The Eldar are stated to be masters of the sky, not the Tau. Indeed taking the Barracuda it is equal/somewhat below a Thunderbolt fighter as while it has better targeters and genetically suited pilots its slower and the human pilots have more experience and docterins to call apon (at least that is what the Forgeworld book seems to say).

2 - A bigger problem than the above background one is the power/mechanics. The Tau have two things that allow them to exploit airpower like no other army.
Cheap air activations.
With decent to excellent firepower and/or armour.
You can mass Tau air activations like no other force. At 2700 points I can have 9 Orca (harassing guns but 4+ 2DC), or say 6 TigerSharks.
Their points to guns/blastmarkers is quite good and with the good weapons plus markerlights etc ground support the army as a whole can neutralise flak extremely well.

Once flak goes they have free reign, sniping, shooting, strafing etc. Interceptors are not much of a problem because of the potential high prevailance of long range flak assets and the general poor quality of Imperial and Ork interceptors.

Anyone else notice this?

A further muddying problem with airpower is some swear by it, others revile it as useless and impossible to effectivly use, needing more powerful assets to get the same effect as an army working together. A side issue but take thunderbolts. I always have two. 1 because I love planes but 2 because they are crap interceptors but bloody good bombers. Nothing chews up light harrassing formations like these chaps. They never go near enemy flak but always get one of the highest kill to unit ratios in the army and more importantly allow my main formations to ignore stuff like sentinels.

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 Post subject: Tau Air
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 1:19 pm 
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Thanks for the comments. Of the entire list, I think that the Air Caste section is the one which requires the most careful consideration. It seems from your post that the two general issues which concern you are:

- Aircraft assets are too 'over developed' compared to other races.

- The Tau can have too many cheap activations wrapped in the air.

Of these, the 'cheap activations' issue is probably easier to rectify if it is felt that this is needed.

I should also make it clear that 'aircraft' does not include the Manta or Moray, just the other four (even though these two are purchased from the Air Caste, they function very differently).

Of these four, the AX-1-0 has been examined and increased in points. Depending on your view of the AX-1-0 changes, that leaves three units.

I know that you would like to see the armour reduced on most, if not all of these, but what other changes do you think would balance these units? (Note to everyone - I am not stating that these units will be changed in any way, just interested in what the suggestions are!)

Thanks.

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 Post subject: Tau Air
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 4:25 pm 
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Anyone else notice this?


Just since I brought it up to JimmyGrill a year ago...  :D

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 Post subject: Tau Air
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 5:12 pm 
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Well IMHO, the problem comes from cheap activations, which can be a real balance problem in EA when you build armies based only on them.
Yeah I know it is not fun ( I'll never do that myself ), but we are talking about game balance...
Just imagine a 3000-point army consisting in 40 formations of gun drones. That's 40BM per turn...

But you cant do that as you have to respect the army structure and take cadres, which prevents players to build illogical armies. ( well, 9 fire warrior cadres and 16 drone contingents might perform well too... )

But with aircrafts, your only limit is the 1/3 point limit. So you can abuse of the cheap activation trick... That's why I think that cheap aircrafts should only be taken in a formation of 2 or more.

I know there is an issue with the orca as pairing them might not be really useful. Perhaps upgrading them and increasing their cost?

cheers!


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 Post subject: Tau Air
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 5:25 pm 
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Since this is the 2 of 3 threads where this topic now appears...

=======

In effort to bring the 9 Orca conversations from hypothetical back into reality just a little bit...

In my opinion, there's a risk of running into any of the following in a tournament. Activation driven blast marker creating ORCA armies may have their challenges to prosper if they run into these kinds of armies at the local tourny venue...

1) Tactical Marine heavy armies which require double BM to break

2) Majority fearless army with low initiatives

3) Tyranid army which ignore ALL blast markers

4) enemy flier fighter heavy armies ?

5) Air-Transport heavy enemy infantry armies capable of combat prowess (Eldar, Orcs, Marines) ready to assault as soon as you land an Orca to claim an objective.

So to those that want to play the 9 orca army - play it!

Lets see some results against all 5 of the above and see what your results are.

With results in hand and Bat Reps posted - let us then discuss whether there is a real problem with the potential of seeing a 9 orca army in a tourny.

Until then - back onto more pressing issues, like getting v4.4 created and posted into the vault as we are LONG overdue on that front!

:alien:

Cheers,





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 Post subject: Tau Air
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 11:52 pm 
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Quote (The_Real_Chris @ 02 Mar. 2006 (09:22))
1 - They have the best planes (and bloody good flak). This doesn't sit right with me. The Eldar are stated to be masters of the sky, not the Tau. Indeed taking the Barracuda it is equal/somewhat below a Thunderbolt fighter as while it has better targeters and genetically suited pilots its slower and the human pilots have more experience and docterins to call apon (at least that is what the Forgeworld book seems to say).

So, let me get this straight TRC...

You say the Tau are master of the air and they have the best planes. Yet you go on to say that the Barracuda is equal or SOMEWHAT LESS than a Thunderbolt....

I'm confused.


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 Post subject: Tau Air
PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 12:10 am 
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You say the Tau are master of the air and they have the best planes. Yet you go on to say that the Barracuda is equal or SOMEWHAT LESS than a Thunderbolt....

I believe he means that according to the current EA unit stats the Tau have the best planes and flak.  But according to fluff the Barracuda is meant to be equal/lesser to the Thunderbolt.

As CyberShadow worded itAircraft assets are too 'over developed' compared to other races.
, TRC is concerned that the Tau aircraft have been interpreted as more powerful than fluff indicates.


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 Post subject: Tau Air
PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 4:09 am 
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gotcha. thx CW


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 Post subject: Tau Air
PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 6:08 am 
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But according to fluff the Barracuda is meant to be equal/lesser to the Thunderbolt.


NOT sure that I agree with the premis. Forget that the Barracuda fluff says that its a air superiority fighter and the aircaste are better physically equipped with dealing with higher G's than an Imperial pilot could even survive in... not to mention their tech is better and the aircaste and are bread for the air role... forget all that for a second...

According to the "Imperial Pattern" that the E:A Steel Legion thunderbolt was based off of - its not even close to the barracuda in fluff!

Remember - that's not the Forgeworld one used in the Steel Legion list friends!

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 Post subject: Tau Air
PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 9:01 am 
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I'm just reading straight from the forgeworld description of the plane. What stats would you give a forgeworld thunderbolt bearing in mind it has to be inferior to a Nightwing?

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 Post subject: Tau Air
PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 5:34 pm 
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Quote (The_Real_Chris @ 03 Mar. 2006 (02:01))

TRC,

And that's the problem.

In E:A, the Steel Legion Thunderbolt is absolutely NOT based upon a 40K Forgeworld Thunderbolt pattern.

The E:A Thunderbolt is based upon something far lesser than the Forgeworld 40K thunderbolt. The Imperial Pattern that E:A bases its Thunderbolt on is NOT EVEN an Imperial Pattern USED in 40K!

The E:A barracuda is based upon the ONLY version of the barracuda - which IS the one in the forgeworld books.

Therefore, the E:A Barracuda WILL end up better than an E:A Thunderbolt on that fact alone.

But its worse yet...

======

Now - for the record.

1) I play IG and Tau in 40k. I own both the forgeworld pattern thunderbolt and the Forgeworld Barracuda. I play them both regularly.

2) The FW 40K Barracuda is BY FAR better than the 40K FW Thunderbolt in my opinion.

IN 40K using the Forgeworld Pattern of both planes
1. To Hit chances...
The Thunderbolt hits on 4+ with all of its weapon systems.
The Barracuda hits with 3+ with all of its weapon systems.

2. Targetting...
The Thunderbolt must fire all of its weapons at the same target.
The Barracuda may target a different target with EACH of its weapon systems.

3. Markerlight Tech...
The Thunderbolt does not benefit from Marker Lights
The Barracuda can use a marked targets and EACH of its weapons can be 2+ to hit.

4. Defense...
Both planes have decoy launcher type mechanisms - however,
The Barracuda can take a disruption pod which further reduces the range of enemy weapons against it.
The Thunderbolt has nothing like this technology.

(I should caveat that the below is from memory)
5. Weapon Payload...
The 40K FW Pattern Thunderbolt (hitting on 4+) has:
1 shot/turn, Strength 9, AP2, reroll misses, 48" range
4 shots/turn, Strength 7, AP4, reroll misses, 48" range
4 one-shot ONLY, Strength 8, AP3, unlimited range.

So 5 shots per turn hitting on 4+ with rerolls, 4 single shot weapons.

The 40K Barracuda (hitting on 3+)has:
3 shots/turn, Strength 7, AP3, 60" range
2 shots/turn, Strenght 7, AP4, reroll misses, 36" range
6 shots/turn, Strength 5, AP4, range 18
4 one-shot ONLY, Strength 8, AP3 unlimited range.

So 11 shots per turn hitting on 3+, one of the weapons rerolls misses, and 4 single shot weapons.

6. Finally - I don't know a single 40K player familiar with both the Forgeworld Thunderbolt and the Forgeworld Tau Barracuda Air Superiority Fighter that would say the FW pattern Thunderbolt is overall better than the air superiority fighter in 40K in any measurable way.

Cheers,

Cheers,

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 Post subject: Tau Air
PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 5:53 pm 
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Seems to me that many of the problems you listed are mostly in the other army lists:  Nightwing not as good as it should be, Ork and IN Interceptors are poor, ect.

We are not here to correct the failings of other lists.

IMO, I think the Nightwing has the edge on the Barracuda, perhaps they are closer than they should be on an individual basis but that level of fine-tuning on this scale is diffacult and probablly not worth the drama.  If the  +1 to intercept rule becomes official (and it will) I could accept increasing the Barracudas to 275 pts, but I would insist on testing at that point before any other changes.  We are never gonna get the right answer without testing.

Quote (nealhunt @ 02 Mar. 2006 (07:25))
Anyone else notice this?


Just since I brought it up to JimmyGrill a year ago...  :D


Here it is.

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 Post subject: Tau Air
PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 7:13 pm 
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Seems to me that many of the problems you listed are mostly in the other army lists:  Nightwing not as good as it should be, Ork and IN Interceptors are poor, ect.

We are not here to correct the failings of other lists.


And that applies to the perception that Tau air assets are "cheap" activations as well.

Ork could get 18 aircraft in six activations at 2700 pts, which is a not inconsiderable strike force and the IN can field 12 aircraft in six activations. The Tau, if they were going to max on Barracudas, would only get three activations and 9 aircraft.

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 Post subject: Tau Air
PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 1:21 am 
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Seems to me that many of the problems you listed are mostly in the other army lists:  Nightwing not as good as it should be, Ork and IN Interceptors are poor, ect.

We are not here to correct the failings of other lists.


I think this shows why a lot of the arguments about tau aircraft are happening .

In the original lists all the aircraft are toned down(from fluff/40k/FW background etc.) so as not to over balance the air assets in the game.

The tau list seems to have them not as toned down as the rest so they seem too powerful, even though they should be better if going by fluff/40k background etc.

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 Post subject: Tau Air
PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 1:35 am 
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And dptdxys nails a point down that's been hanging around in my brain since I started playing E:Armageddon - aircraft in the core lists (and by core I mean SM, SL & Orks) are deliberately weakened if you try and compare them to a 40k FW-statted equivalent.

THe problem with this approach comes in when we try and create new aircraft, without an idea of what is a reasonable level of down-statting to fit with those that came before, and it's something I think all the AC's (including myself) who are designing lists including new aircraft could use some guidance on.

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