Epic Tau Army List vE5.1 – 100209

Tau fluff

Special Rules:

Coordinated Fire
The Tau are masters of ranged warfare and have several very experienced fighters and specially equipped troops that are
able to lead other Tau on an attack, expertly directing their fire against the foe; thus Tau are especially adept at outflanking enemy formations and attacking them from several sides with their deadly coordinated fire.

Some units are noted as being able to call in coordinated fire. Those units can order up to two other formations that have not taken an action this turn, and which are not broken, to follow their own formation when they take an advance, double or sustained fire action, as long as all of the formations have at least one unit within 15cm of the formation containing unit
calling for coordinated fire.

Make a single initiative roll for all formations, counting a single –1 modifier if any have blast markers. If the test is failed then the original formation (containing the unit calling for coordinated fire) receives a Blast marker and must take a hold action, but the other formations are unaffected (and may take an action later in the turn). If the test is passed then all formations concerned are allowed to take either an advance, double or sustained fire action.

There is no obligation for all formations to take the same action, and these actions may be resolved in any order, but they must all fire at the same target formation. The formations don’t have to stay within a given distance of each other and will complete their actions one after the other. Each formations action is declared and resolved (including testing to see if the
target formation is broken) before moving on to the next Tau formation.

Note that units with this ability confer the Coordinated Fire ability to any formation that they join. For example, a Pathfinder upgrade purchased to be added to a Fire Warrior Cadre, adds the Coordinated Fire ability to all units in the Cadre, including the Fire Warriors.

Markerlights
All enemy formations with at least one unit within 30cm range and Line of Fire (LOF) of at least one Tau unit with the markerlights ability is considered to be marked. When shooting at a marked formation, all ranged firepower attacks add +1 to their to-hit roll.

Guided Missiles may not be fired unless the target formation is marked, but Guided Missiles may be fired without LOF if the target is marked. A Tau formation may not mark an enemy formation if it has used the March order during the turn, or if it has become broken. The +1 to-hit bonus for shooting at a marked enemy may not be used when making Anti-Aircraft attacks.

Tau Jet Packs
Tau Crisis Battle suits, Stealth suits and Drones make use of powerful and sophisticated jump packs. These allow them to pounce on the enemy and strafe them before retreating again out of range of the survivors’ retribution.

Tau Jet Packs follow all the rules for Jump Packs. Additionally, units with Tau Jet Packs are allowed to make an additional
move of 10cm after the shooting section of an advance or double order. The extra move is allowed whether or not the unit
fires, and may be used to move in any direction. This extra move follows all the normal movement rules, so unit coherency and zones of control must be adhered to as usual. No extra movement is allowed on any order other than advance or double.

In formations where only some of the units have Tau Jet Packs, the units without Tau Jet Packs are not allowed the extra
move.

Tau Deflector Shields
Tau deflector shields work in a different way to Imperial or Ork shields in that they do not absorb the incoming energy, but are shaped and positioned in such a way as to deflect the incoming fire (hence the designation). A further noteworthy trait is that the shield’s response will be proportionally more powerful with the energy of the attack.

Tau deflector shields work like an invulnerable save in all respects, except that this invulnerable save is always at 5+.



Tau armies have a strategy rating of 3. Battle suit Cadres containing the Supreme Commander and the Manta have an initiative value of 1+, all other Tau formations have an initiative value of 2+.

Cadres

Formation: Fire Warrior
Units: 6 Fire Warriors and 3 Devilfish or 8 Fire Warriors
Upgrades: Ethereal, Fire Warriors, Skyray, Pathfinders, Drones
Cost: 225 pts

Formation: Battle suit
Units: 4 Crisis Battle suits
Upgrades: Supreme Commander, Commander, Stealth, Drones, Battle suits
Cost: 250 pts

Tau Support Groups

Tau Support Formationsâ€â€

_________________
Honda

"Remember Taros? We do"

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

So a squadron of two Tigersharks can, potentially, drop *four* formations of Drones?

That seems a little high...  the Imperial Armour stats indicate a single Tigershark can carry 14 individual Drones, which would essentially be three EPIC units-worth.  How did you come up with twelve units per plane?

_________________
"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?

Additionally, there is no "Upgrade: Pathfinders" as indicated in the Formation: Pathfinders nor an "Upgrade: Stealth" for the Crisis formation.

_________________
"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?

Looks good from a quick look over I hope to get a playtest game in with it tomorrow (will be my first ever game with Tau in epic)

One thing I’ve vaguely wondered for a while but not got roung to asking before: why is it that with Kroot upgrades you can get 5 extra Kroot for 75 points (15pts each) or you can get 3 extra Kroot Hounds for 50pts each (16.66pts each)? Why pay more for Kroot Hounds which are identical to Kroot except the fact they are worse in respect of having no FF rather than 5+. Unless I’m missing something surely something is a little off here?

I’m rather fond of taking lots of Kroot and the varied types, but I’m put off fielding my Hounds at the moment because I’m paying more for poorer troops and this seems wrong. If you agree that this is problem possible solutions could perhaps be to improve the Hound slightly (perhaps extra move? That may be a bad idea), or to adjust the points / numbers you get for them?

The wording on the almost sounds like you have to have the SC AND manta to get the 1+ initiative.

Would this be more clear:
The Manta and Battle suit Cadres containing the Supreme Commander have an initiative value of 1+

_________________
-Vaaish

That's constructive.

Well you could have been a bit more constructive Hena but I sort of agree ... to some degree anyway.

I'd like to say up front, thanks for taking the time to attempt a new list Honda. However, tbh, I'm a bit blah on this design. Respectfully, I think it just looks like you changed stuff from the E series to put your own stamp on things and not for any other reason. I'm sure that isn't true but it truly looks that way at first glance. Especially since a lot of what you have done wasn't necessary.

Unit feedback:

Can I ask why you dropped the Battlesuits back to 2+ initiative? The E series costed them correctly with 1+ IMO. With 1+, 300 for the Stealths was spot on. Given every unit type took a hit in base to-hit stats as well.... I liked it and they were elite formations as battlesuits should be.
Can I ask why battlesuits can add up to 4 more suits? That's a pretty big battlesuit formation! A bit too big really. 8?! oof! E&Cs Crisis set up was neat and you couldn't pack the kitchen sink into them to keep them alive. You might take a look at just how much shooting comes out of a 12 unit formation with a SC upgrade as well. My last game had them fire 19 weapons (with just 6 Crisis suits)and now I can add 6 more units? yowza!

Thankyou for keeping the Fusion HHs    I was fearing the worst. It's the one thing I am totally happy about.

Wow! Fire Warriors really took a hit in the upgrades . They're back to being just a sideline again as both types of formations (foot/mech) lose all flexibility without a Broadside or Hammerhead upgrade. That's a bit sad. They were dynamic in the E series as you could tailor them for specific jobs. Also I cant see the foot FWs being worth 225 now. You get 2 more infantry instead of 3 DF and lose all manouevre?   I would strongly urge you to return the FWs to the E series set up. Truly.

Adding drones back to the Battlesuits? Hmm, that won't be popular. I found I could do without them. In fact I don't like it all that much given you can now take 8 Crisis suits and drones to help soak fire... that's a 12 unit formation! Opponents won't like that. Heck, not even I do. I doubt Crises are designed to fight in such a massive block of units. It's almost the Tau equivalent of an IG company! Yoiks!

Barracudas - I'm just a bit flat on these now. They aren't massively different with AA5+ and I can see why you changed it back to 5+ from 4+ but I just can't be enthuiastic about a plane that should be a really good interceptor and is stuck half way between an average fighter and a really average FB.

Summation:

Can we keep the E series?  

Hena said pretty much the same thing about the Tyranid list when the latest version was released too. At some point there will be four major Epic groups, the ERC, the F-ERC, EpicUK, and Hepic.  

Anyways, jokes aside, noone's forcing anyone to play any list, every list the ERC produces is 'just' the consensus view of a single online community, and isn't going to be appropriate for everyone.

Heck, half the reason this change is happening is because a lot of people (myself included) had given up on playig the ERC Tau list until Honda asked for opinions as to what should change, for well-known reasons that need not be repeated.

My comments shall follow below.

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

Here are my comments on the changes that occured from the E series:


- Initiative Rating of Crisis Suits put back to 2+.
I'd prefer Crisis formations to be 1+ across the board. Though I do see the fun in having the SC have this ability, I think maybe the God of Balance should rule here.


- Fire Warriors on foot increased in cost by 25pts.
I can't see this as being a good thing for Fire Warriors.


- Fire Warriors denied access to several Upgrade types such as Hammerheads and Piranhas.
Again, I can't see this as being a good thing as it marginalises Fire Warriors. Under the E series Fire Warriors were sort of a 'swiss army knife' formation, one of only two formation types in the army (the other was the Hammerhead formation) that could be customised in style to some extent. This has been lost.


- Drones and Stealthsuit Upgrades allowed on Crisis Suit formations.
I'm very much against this. The big problem with Crisis Suit formations previously was that when beefed up with lots of Upgrades, they could be used as a mainline combat formation, easily eclipsing half the role of the Fire Warriors (Infantry battles). The E series cut back on their upgrades hugely, because although a standard sized Crisis formation is pretty good, one upgraded with Drones especially is brilliant.
Basically, due to this increase up Upgrade choice I reckon that Fire Warriors will not be seen as the 'core' of the Tau army, just as they weren't under 5.1 and previously.



- Drones allowed on Broadside formations.
As with Crisis Suits, I believe this formation is great without Drones, and exceptional (too good) with Drones.


- Pathfinder Formation dropped by 25pts, and loses the Sniper ability.
Sniper was supposed to give this formation a different niche to Fire Warriors, and match the background & 40k rules better. Now they're back to competing for the same army list slot as Fire Warriors, except they also have Markerlights...



- Stealth formation dropped by 25pts
I'm against this, Stealths are fantastic, and under the E series were actually on the edge of going up another 25pts, not down.



- Hammerhead formation loses access to 'All Upgrades' and is only allowed Hammerheads or Skyrays.
Given your (Honda's) stated belief that the Hammerhead formation should be at the forefront of the army list, I'm surprised by the loss of customisation here. I've no great objection to this change, as long as an Armoured themed list is not going to happen in order to give the Armour players their customisability.



- Kroot Formation not limited by the number of Fire Warrior formations.
I liked that limit, in that it felt appropriate that there should at least be *some* Fire Warriors in the army before you start taking Kroot. It was a 'fluffy' rather than a 'balance' restriction.



- Deleted Human Auxilliary.
Awwwwwww.  




- Created a 'Crisis Suits' Upgrade Choice (that seems only accessable by Crisis Suit formations?).
Having this upgrade as a 1-4 choice leaves it wide open for min/maxing exploitation. Having a list open to min/max abuse is a bad thing, which is why it was at a fixed size for the Crisis Formation under the E series.



- Fire Warrior Upgrade syntax changed.
The knock on effect of the syntax change is that you can now buy 2 empty Devilfishes if you want.



- Drones Upgrade fixed at 4 units, instead of 2 or 4.
No objection at all.



- Piranhas Upgrade changed from 2 to 3 tanks, for the same 75pts.
No objection at all.



- Bonded Team Upgrade ('leader' for Fire Warriors) removed.
This was supposed to be a stealth boost for Fire Warriors, so removing it is a stealth nerf.



- Kroot Upgrades put in the Upgrades section instead of self-contained in the unit entry.
I thought the 5.1 format was ok, but I don't really object.



- Added 50pts to the price of Tigersharks
Why?



- Made Hero Spacecraft cost 200pts instead of 225pts.
Heroes are too good for 200pts, IMHO.


- A single Tigershark can carry 12 Drone units.
As Chroma points out, a single Tigershark can carry 3 Drone units in the 40k rules/the background, so this seems to be much too great a transport capacity.


- Barracuda changed in stats.
Now you'll have weapons with the same name, but different stats, in the army list, surely?





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Overall, most of my comments have negative views on the changes that have been implemented, but please trust that they are stated so bluntly because I care greatly about the health of the list, and because I believe that some of the changes that have been made will make it much harder to balance the list in a reasonable time frame, and the one thing I would really like to see in six months' time is a core Tau list that is *finished* and locked-down as complete.

Other negative comments refer to changes which will not greatly affect the external balance of the list, but will affect the internal balance (making some units/formations not worth taking) or will negatively affect the 'theme' of the list (making it less representative of what the 'Tau' are).


Every comment is just my personal opinion, as informed by a deep knowlege of the Warhammer 40,000 background setting, and by playing against the Tau Epic army lists (both ERC and Forgeworld) for quite a few years, and then filtered through my typically coarse discourse style. Please trust that I'm not being contrary, and have reasons other than my well-known  natural belligerance for objecting. 

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

Unfortunately those of us who play in tournaments have to play this list if it becomes ratified - not saying this will be the final cut obviously.

There I go showing my non tournament-playing bias again.  

Yes, I suppose it's true that outside the UK and France the ERC list will be the de-facto tournament list.

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

GENERAL LIST COMMENT: While evaluating both lists, what I really want to see happen is a list that isn't just a container for a bunch of Tau units. I want the list to have character, to be defining. I saw the E list as a better example of defining "character" than the Five series to date. The "E" series brought together the elusive synergy that I was looking for. One of the sideline comments that I got was that although the E series basically got you to the same numbers as the 5 series, it forced you to use the units together to achieve that result. That comment nicely summed up what I was looking for. Although the 5 series was the product of several years of evolutionary growth, in general it had become an association of units vs. an army of character.

So I intend to embrace this new direction and place it within the framework of the "re-evaluation" note that I posted awhile ago.

So first off, I was not expecting to get everything "right" today. My position on several items mentioned is actually fairly soft and that is why there is a 30 day period to refine this entry before the real testing phase takes place. In taking this first cut I wanted to see what you see. There are things that I will back off on quite easily and there are things that I feel strongly about.

So let's see if we can get there.



I understand the desire for this. I was a proponent of the original boost, but using the nature of Tau as expressed in 40K, they are not a high initiative army in general. In fact, it is one of the reasons that most 40K Tau players fear hand-to-hand is because they must survive most opponents striking first. So, although those that like to field crisis suits (like me) have enjoyed this ability, I do not feel it is justified across the board for crisis suits. They just aren't that good in HtH, which I see as a reflection in the Initiative rating.

I understand that Epic's initiative rating is not 40Ks initiative rating, but to further explain why, no one has ever proffered that Fire Warriors deserve a higher initiative, yet a crisis suit is just a Fire Warrior in a different weapon system. I understand that not everyone is going to share this perspective.



I purposely split the difference between the mechanized version and the foot version to simplify the listing. This isn't set in concrete, but let's ride it like this for the first cut and see. I don't think it is that significant of a change.



My first cut on this change was to ratchet down, then loosen up. I am open to adjusting these changes because I agree that this cadre is going to be a key to list play. So, without asking for the world, what is really needed here?

Do keep in mind that when I renamed the groups, I didn't undertake that exercise because I had nothing else to do. I did that to help organize in my mind how the different formations would operate and where certain functions would come from to realize a particular synergy. So although having a "swiss army knife" isn't a bad concept in general, there should be some focus on what the FW role should be otherwise we could just refine the list to "Fire Warriors + What ever you want to add". It makes for a simple list, but loses all character.



I made these changes because I see a synergy between Stealth and Crisis suits. In my armies I operate them together all the time...like all the time. I understand what you are saying and I am not against dropping drones. I will consider dropping the Stealths as well, but will not commit to that action at this point.

Regarding the comment of crisis suits as a mainline combat formation. I am in favor of them having a significant role. Their role in 40K has expanded since their first inception and in fact in Apocalypse, which is Epic's poorer cousin, the Tau have been given access to large crisis formations for this exact purpose. So, I did this intentionally and see it as a feature of an infantry centric list.



In this case, I was merely striving for consistency across the support formations. I have no beef with dropping the drones.



I am not convinced that Sniper is justified, but I would like you to consider a potential upgrade for one unit like SM Scouts. Pathfinder units are not snipers in the true sense of the word, but an upgrade could represent the Sniper drones that are possible in 40K.



So, my baseline on this unit is that I did not think that it needed changing from the 5 series. I observed and felt that you got your money's worth from the existing stats. Now having said that, if there was a unit that I thought justified a +1 Initiative based on fluff factors for the potential cost increase you mention, I could support that. Realize that I believe in the E series, they were +1 Initiative and in the blended list they were a +2.



So, I thought long and hard on this one. In the end, I decided to embrace the concept of an "infantry centric" list with supporting formations. That means that the Hammerhead formations (4+2 units) have a slightly lessened emphasis. Given the reduced emphasis, I do not see a need for extensive build outs. They should be able to defend themselves from air attack, hence the Skyray, but in general will operate in conjunction with the core cadres in a supportive role.



There used to be a 1+ in front of the Fire Warrior cadres to ensure that FW were present in previous versions. I do not mind adding it back.



This supports the other decision about crisis suits that I described above. Considering the cost of the upgrades and that this is the only formation where it occurs, I am comfortable with the the level of risk, but will watch this one. If it becomes gamey, then I'll re-evaluate.



That wasn't intentional, so help me with the language.



I understand, but I was modeling a specific behavior and at this scale, I felt that this version of the upgrade was the effect I was looking for.



That wasn't intentional, I'll look at that.



Based on the other thread, I was obviously confused about the carrying capacity. Given that drones can add more drones, I didn't want to base the limit on formations, let me know what the total number of drone units can be carried.



I do not think the 5 series Barracuda stats need to be changed. I have been convinced that they were over-costed and agreed to address that cost in the past. I will re-visit the entry correct, but the 5 series stats is which version will be in the list.



I will make this change, pending the decision on the Stealth formation.



Well, they're around here somewhere, where did I put them? Depending on some pending decisions, this could change, so let's hold on to this one for a little bit.

Cheers,

_________________
Honda

"Remember Taros? We do"

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

Honda, one question are you now the prime army champ or is Cybershadow still the head of Tau development? Just curious.