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Tau Vior'la v2.0

 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:16 am 
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Cyguns wrote:
The Pulse Submuinition cannon had 2x stat AND there are 2 of them , is it meant to then fire twice per cannon? In other words , does it amount to a total of 4 shots ?

Yes, typo. I've been playing them with two shots.

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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 11:19 am 
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2 shots, that feels a bit puny no? At AP3+ maybe not tho, 3 of em , 12shots AP3+ :D I take it back
But in a formation with 2 riptides and just one R’varna it would have been very luvly ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 8:16 pm 
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I've really enjoyed one Riptide and two R'varna. It can take some damage, and the Riptide offers the nice MW shot at 45cm and the blastmarker against potential air assaults.

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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:49 pm 
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Hey all, this is my first post here on the forums :)
I recently got pulled into NetEA by my friend Kingzog, largely because of the appeal of playing a big stompy list. I’ve gotten a couple games in so far, and I’m going to try and write up my first battle report with the Vior’la 2.3 list below.

3000 pts - Vior’la 2.3 vs Elysian Drop Regiment

6 pathfinders, 2 gun drones
6 pathfinders, 2 gun drones
8 breachers, skyray, 3 broadsides, Shas’o, bonded teams
8 breachers, skyray, 3 broadsides, fireblade, bonded teams
8 crisis suits, Shas’el
6 broadsides
2 riptides, R’Varna
2 riptides, R’Varna

1 SC, 7 drop troops, 4 drop sentinels, 4 valkyries, 2 hardened vets
1 commander, 7 drop troops, 4 drop sentinels, 8 valkyries, 2 hardened vets
1 commander, 7 drop troops, 4 drop sentinels, 8 valkyries, 2 hardened vets
8 storm troopers, 4 valkyries
8 storm troopers, 4 valkyries
2 lightning strike fighters
Lunar class cruiser
4 tauros
4 tauros

I’m coming over from Team Yankee as a german player, so I’m very inclined to play a mobile striker strategy. I liked the aggressive look of the riptides and crisis suits, and I intended to use the breachers, pathfinders, and broadsides as a solid defensive line. I had no idea how this would play against the mechanised drop troopers, but I felt confident in the ample AT and MW the Tau can bring.

The objectives all got deployed very close to the middle, so I got to garrison my broadsides and breacher formations in very good overwatch locations. My opponent held one of his drop formations in teleport, and I knew his cruiser was coming in with a nasty barrage so I kept my units spread out. My opponent’s aircraft were ineffective against the riptides, with neither damaging the other the entire game.

Turn 1, my heavy battlesuits ran up the right flank into an overwatch barrage which put damage on a riptide and suppressed the R’Varnas. The suits did a number on the offending stormtroopers. One of my pathfinder formations moved up to try and give markerlight support but quickly got smashed by a double from one of the drop troop formations. My broadside formation got good overwatch shots on a scout formation, and a breacher formation broke them. Everyone else advanced to better positions.

Turn 2 was big. The Elysian cruiser came in, completely whiffing its bombardment. The HQ drop troop formation which had moved up found itself in range of all my heavy battlesuits, so the suits sustained fire and broke them. My crisis suits moved up to take an objective, breaking the stormtrooper formation on the right flank in the process. I got to use the coordinated fire rule to bring pathfinders, breachers, and broadsides into a big gunline against the other drop troop platoon on the left flank, but didn’t do much. My other breacher was broken by a scout formation bombardment as they ran over towards the right flank.

The beginning of turn 3 was the deciding moment, as the drop troops were really hurting. My opponent’s formations all rallied, but I held 3 of the middle objectives. My opponent teleported in his last drop troop formation on my left flank, right behind the gunline I made on turn 2, contesting the two objectives on that side. However, I won the initiative roll and my opponent conceded as I prepared another coordinated fire against the newly arrived troops in the open. At that point the score was 1-0 Tau (TaH), but it seemed likely that within one activation the score would be 3-0 Tau (TaH, DtF, TSNP).

Overall I was very pleased with how the Tau performed. I was able to concentrate fire effectively and keep the scary assault units at bay or broken. My casualties were limited- I only lost a few breachers and pathfinders (although both formations broke, I used that to run them back and rally to hold my rear objective).

My takeaways on the Vior’la so far:
- Point values seem pretty good across the board
- I really like being able to get pathfinders in-formation with fire warriors, was a bit disappointed to see that its a replacement not an add-on like in Third Sphere
- R’Varnas have a typo if I correctly read some older posts (4 AP3+ or 2 AP3+?)
- I was able to play a game with the revised Manta in a Third Sphere army, I like the changes and felt like it was a point-effective pick
- Not getting a Skysweep group made the skyray upgrade feel like a necessary upgrade for the fire warriors. Is this why they get 4 upgrades vs the 3 of Third Sphere fire warriors? Made me hesitant to commit them to close combat for fear of losing my AA coverage. That said, riptides did pick up the slack but consequently also felt like a necessary inclusion.
- Big fan of the crisis suits with flamers
- Y’Vahras seem a bit odd, maybe increased speed (superior jetpacks)? To be stress tested this weekend.
- A recon skimmer group would be lovely, but I understand if that’s too close to Third Sphere :)

I’m new to the game, so I’m hoping you all can offer insight about the design considerations involved with my above thoughts. Sorry if this post is a bit wordy. I will be playing another game this coming weekend against Kingzog’s Space Marines, with the intention of stress testing the heavy battlesuits some more (namely the Y’Vahras). More to follow!


Last edited by Warp Rider on Tue Jun 23, 2020 11:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:58 pm 
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Welcome to Epic and the greater good. Yes, as it is written , it’s four AP3+ shots. Since the stat line For the weapon reads 2xAP3+....... and then 2x the weapon will equal 4 shots. But as you say, I’m not sure that is intended?


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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:49 pm 
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Welcome to the forums and to the game, Warp Rider. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I can only add that when testing a list, it would be better if doing it against an approved one or if with the same lists you and your opponent exchange sides and play another game. The information gotten from the game is more accurate that way.

Cygnus, Gunslinger007 said above it was just 2 shots, not 2x2. 2x2 is a typo.

gunslinger007 wrote:
Cyguns wrote:
The Pulse Submuinition cannon had 2x stat AND there are 2 of them , is it meant to then fire twice per cannon? In other words , does it amount to a total of 4 shots ?

Yes, typo. I've been playing them with two shots.

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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 11:36 pm 
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Abetillo, me and warp rider are gonna try to do some more test games this weekend piting the vior'la against the salamanders. I was wondering if you (or anyone else) had any suggestions or is there anything that needs to be tested in the list?

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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 4:05 am 
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kingzog wrote:
Abetillo, me and warp rider are gonna try to do some more test games this weekend piting the vior'la against the salamanders. I was wondering if you (or anyone else) had any suggestions or is there anything that needs to be tested in the list?


Thanks for the test games! Looking forward to hearing what you think of the list.

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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2020 7:48 am 
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Aaah Good!! Then it’s established! 2 shots, one in the morning and one in the evening.


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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:47 pm 
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Hey lads, next batrep for Vior'la 2.3 is up, this time on the dedicated Vior'la batrep thread. Kingzog faced off against the Tau with his Salamander army in a 3K pts slugfest. I'll summarise our takeways below.

Rules issues:
- The Manta can carry a single Heavy Battlesuit. I cannot think of a single instance in which this would come up, maybe the Manta statline could be simplified by removing this.
- For the Guided Missile special rule, do targets benefit from being obscured by terrain. I.e. would a markerlit tank benefit from being hull-down? Presumably GMs can ignore LoF because they go over intervening terrain, so we played it as ignore's hull-down.

The Y'Vahra:
- not worth the points, they overkill single targets and get easily overwhelmed
- 15cm range forces the Y'Vahra to get very close to enemies, but once there it is not very resilient and dies quickly in assaults
- main guns don't kill enough things to make them better than engaging, and doubling to get in range makes the main gun a 5+
- in FF/CC, they do get 3 swings each, but none of these swing benefit from the giant titan killer flame thrower
- 5+CC and 4+FF are insufficient for a unit that wants to be in your face
- ultimately, there is almost no reason to take this over a Riptide as they have the same stats but worse range and versatility

Proposed areas of improvement in order we deemed most useful for their intended role:
- give them better CC/FF stats
- give them better movement to reflect the improved Tau jetpacks they have in fluff
- make the EA a MW attack
- lower the main gun to a MW4+

The Stormsurge:
- decent AT platform, but the Supremacy is already good at that
- I think I read earlier that there's been some discussion on the Stormsurge and the Supremacy competing for the same role

Proposed changes:
- drop the range on the main gun
- up the cost
- let them use their main missile battery (BP2 Disrupt, no indirect fire, maybe slow firing depending on points)

Last thoughts:
It may have been brought up earlier, but why can the Shas'O not be taken in a Crisis Suit? Breachers are cool, but I'm a little confused why assets like the skyray and Shas'O can only be taken by them.

I hope our feedback on these things help! The game was very long (almost went 5 turns), and we covered a lot of ground.

Best,
WR


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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 12:30 am 
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Warp Rider wrote:
Rules issues:
- The Manta can carry a single Heavy Battlesuit. I cannot think of a single instance in which this would come up, maybe the Manta statline could be simplified by removing this.
- For the Guided Missile special rule, do targets benefit from being obscured by terrain. I.e. would a markerlit tank benefit from being hull-down? Presumably GMs can ignore LoF because they go over intervening terrain, so we played it as ignore's hull-down.


Thanks for the feedback WR! Since heavy suits take up 4 of the Manta's 20 slots, you should be able to fit 5 heavy suits into the Manta. The idea was for a larger formation to fit if you wanted to, but to restrict the ability to fit 2 formations. And I agree with your interpretation of the GM v hull down.

Warp Rider wrote:
The Y'Vahra:
- not worth the points, they overkill single targets and get easily overwhelmed
- 15cm range forces the Y'Vahra to get very close to enemies, but once there it is not very resilient and dies quickly in assaults
- main guns don't kill enough things to make them better than engaging, and doubling to get in range makes the main gun a 5+
- in FF/CC, they do get 3 swings each, but none of these swing benefit from the giant titan killer flame thrower
- 5+CC and 4+FF are insufficient for a unit that wants to be in your face
- ultimately, there is almost no reason to take this over a Riptide as they have the same stats but worse range and versatility

Proposed areas of improvement in order we deemed most useful for their intended role:
- give them better CC/FF stats
- give them better movement to reflect the improved Tau jetpacks they have in fluff
- make the EA a MW attack
- lower the main gun to a MW4+


I agree the Y'Vahra is probably the least versatile of the three heavy suits. The role is pretty clear to serve as a super heavy killer with the TK weapon, but the range definitely limits it.

It can already move 50cm with another 10cm after (jet packs) so I'm hesitant to make it faster. Doubling does push the shot up to a 5+, but as with all Tau, if your markerlights are positioned right, you'll be able to off set it and keep the 4+. It's important to me to make sure that while the list can hit harder than the 3rd sphere, it still relies on the same mechanics to make it function best, like MLs and coordinated fire.

With a 3+/5+ save, it can weather some fire, but it's not a terminator. The thick rear armor helps commit it w/o being concerned with crossfire. All that said, like most Tau, its not meant to thrive in engagements so I'm hesitant to improve the CC. A base formation is already putting out 9 shots FF at 4+ which I think is alright. We can try the extra FF as MW. I think that could help reinforce the front line roll without making it to overbearing.

Warp Rider wrote:
The Stormsurge:
- decent AT platform, but the Supremacy is already good at that
- I think I read earlier that there's been some discussion on the Stormsurge and the Supremacy competing for the same role

Proposed changes:
- drop the range on the main gun
- up the cost
- let them use their main missile battery (BP2 Disrupt, no indirect fire, maybe slow firing depending on points)


The intent of the SS is to provide long range heavy fire to the list. Combined with MLs, it can do real damage to a unit that finds itself in the open. The Supremacy is designed to fill different roles in the list, depending on what the list builder needs. I think the Supremacy and SS overlap only if you take the Heavy Rail Cannon. So to that extent, I'd agree (although there is the difference of TK and weight of fire ;) ) But if you opt for the missiles or multidriver, the formations would be playing different roles of artillery or BP application, respectively.

As for adding more BP to the list, I don't think we'll go that way at this point. There was a lot of resistance giving Tau BP on the multidriver since this was a designed weakness in the 3rd sphere list. If anything, we'd probably look to consider additional single missile shots.

Warp Rider wrote:
Last thoughts:
It may have been brought up earlier, but why can the Shas'O not be taken in a Crisis Suit? Breachers are cool, but I'm a little confused why assets like the skyray and Shas'O can only be taken by them.

I hope our feedback on these things help! The game was very long (almost went 5 turns), and we covered a lot of ground.

Best,
WR


This was more for thematic purposes. 3rd sphere has the Shas'O locked into crisis suits. Here it's locked into the firewarriors.

If there's any changes you feel really should be in place, do a batrep with them and I'd be happy to look it over. There's a lot to sift through with list design so if I miss something or a lot of community if pulling for something, I want to see and hear and see what we can do with it.


Edit one of prior posts. I need to apologize, I went back and double checked the original R'varna stats. The do indeed have 4 shots at 3+/5+. My oversight and apologies to everyone who following my post. Hat tip to Captpiett for bringing that up to my attention.

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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 12:56 am 
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V2.4 is posted!

MW added to the EA on the Y'Vahra.
Gun Drones stat line added.
Transport added to Devilfish
Pathfinders - optioned removed to swap devilfish for 2x infantry.

Note - I looked back at the original documents and the Rvarna should have 2x2 shots (4 total.) My apologies for incorrectly clarifying that awhile back.

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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 2:21 am 
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I will try and get a game in. What would you like tested against which army?

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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 4:07 am 
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Gunslinger, thanks for the thorough response AND the new revisions to sink our teeth into. I've had the chance to play a couple more games with the Vior'la since my last batrep (Kingzog and Prawns have been very generous with their time) and I'm quite pleased with how they've been playing.

For the Manta, thank you for clarifying that the heavies count against infantry slots not AVs that makes a lot more sense now. I've run the revised Manta as a staple in my list twice now and it's been great.

I was definitely harsh on the Y'Vahra, glad to see it getting some love with the MW. Kingzog and I talked it through ad nauseum and we agree that fundamentally it should be a striker not a terminator ;)

For the Stormsurges and Shas'O points, thanks for the explanation and context. I get the hesitation to put too much BP in an army that already melts small armies at range. I look forward to adding R'Varnas back into my roster of heavy suits as soon as I find good models for them!

Lastly to second folais- Kingzog, Prawns, and I will be running some more games this weekend. If there are any specific requests we'd be happy to accommodate.

Best- WR


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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 6:27 pm 
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m_folais wrote:
I will try and get a game in. What would you like tested against which army?


Thanks man! Any approved army would be great, but the core ones (marines, IG, orks) are always the best indicators.

Would be great to see what you think is the optimal list and trying stress test spam units. One thing I'm keeping an eye on is having a cheap scouting core unit. But in my play tests I havent found it in balanced yet.

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