Borka wrote:
Kyrt wrote:
I will see what I can do with it.
Borka what do you mean about the true cost of the shas o?
I mean it replaces the Shas'el which I think is a 25 pts upgrade. So the way I see it in reality its cost it 25 + 75 points.
Kyrt wrote:
The shas o is 75 for the re roll and extra weapon. The shas el at 25 points is paying for the coordinated fire and leader. So if you don't give it leader (and not sure it really needs it) what are you proposing you should get for your 100 points? Is this to be combined with coordinated fire in a single command bridge upgrade? I really think 100 points is too much just for a re roll considering how expensive the unit is already. It's not even a brilliant BTS.
I'm not sure I follow. the Shas'o does give it Leader as well. I don’t think that should be removed.
The shooting attack I think is inconsequential for the Manta. What we're really after and pay for in any army when we take a supreme commander is the reroll, it's the essential thing. So I guess with the manta the first 25 pts are for leader and then 75 pts for the reroll. But also you pay for the ability to have a your Supreme commander in a unit that is hard to kill and on top of that has fearless. Yes it not as durable as a reaver or phantom titan, but a DC8 fearless unit with triple 5+ save will for most armies take considerable effort to kill (if you don't have deathstrikes that is). That's something we need to take into consideration.
The cost of the formation may be very expensive, but it makes no difference for the army as a whole as you're paying a 100 points for your SC anyways. It's up to the player were they want to put him.
Tau, IG, BL, DE and Marines all pay 100 points for supreme commanders in easy to kill infantry units. I can't see the justification for it to be cheaper in a place were it's considerably harder to kill.
GlynG wrote:
I know a Manta can carry an Ethereal but I wouldn't represent this as an option in the Epic list as the advantage an Ethereal bring is fearless to the formation it joins and the Manta is already fearless.
I agree definitely a sub par choice, and that's also why I see it as an unproblematic inclusion. It will basically be taken for fluff reasons or as cheaper way than a Shas'o to make one Manta BTS if you bring two or to get leader.
Don't think I am explaining properly. A shas'el costs 25 points (or did before it was made free). It has
coordinated fire and leader. The shas'o adds the reroll (and another weapon which has a non-zero value but let's ignore for now). So the reroll does not cost 100, it costs 75 or less. This is the same with some other races you mention - a marine reroll does not cost 100, it costs 50 as this is the cost to upgrade a captain (macro, commander, double leader). Dark eldar pay 50 for a reroll and inspiring. The eldar autarch is 50 points to gain reroll, commander, leader, macro and an invuln save. The most expensive at 100 is IG, which adds to a commander: leader, reroll, better stats and macro. So 100 is the absolute maximum an army might pay to get a unit with a reroll, but they all have other abilities too.
Now if you are talking about giving the manta all three abilities - leader, coordinated fire and a reroll then
maybe it is worth 100, but a) it isn't clear whether this is the proposal or not, and b) this isn't actually the choice that a player makes. They choose whether to upgrade a 650 point manta for 100 points, or to upgrade a 250 point crisis formation for 75 points. If I also had to pay more for coordinated fire I think it is too much.
To be honest leader on a war engine seems strange to me also, I would rather lose it to keep the cost down.
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