Game experience - playing twice a week for 4+ years, 81 tourney games etc. Most intercepts are on thawks+landas as they are the most dangerous air assaults - they have 360% flak that keeps you out of 15cm. Its this that makes vampires the weakest air transport.

I've rarely seen fighter-fighter intercepts - players usually rely on ground-AA for fighter defence.

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Against Thunderhawks at least I'd push my Thunderbolt squadron within 15cm, as if you are approaching from the side it's only going to get one shot at you, with an approximately 45% chance to kill a single T-bolt.

Meaning you have a 45% chance at having the same two AA4+ shots you would have had at 16cm, but a 55% chance of having four AA4+ shots.

Ork Landas make me think a bit more mind you as they have multiple AA shots and have more DC, so getting in close isn't going to bring the best returns.

Personally I find myself using Thunderbolts as ground-attackers a decent percentage of the time, as most enemy armies only spend one turn with active transport aircraft, meaning you have 2/3 turns of doing other stuff with the Thunderbolts than intercepting (Tau and their AX-1-0's excepted!).


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All the above being said, I've been convinced by the discussion to climb off the fence into the 'no change' camp, for now at least.

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Back when I was testing 5.1 I normally took a formation of Barra's and my opponents did too (from memory).

They are an OK fighter imo.

I think has done the best summary.

To add to it the barracuda will always be a second choice to the skyray. The latter gives both excellent AA defence and markerlights, 2 things the Tau list needs. Even if you wish to stick with the comparison with the thunderbolt Guard players will still take twice as many points in hydra than tbolts normally because ground flak is just better in so many ways, tbolts are predominately used by players who wish them to survive as either a cap deterrent or a ground attack formation for picking on stuff like lv's outside their defensive flak, but as I've said above I feel they are the equal to tbolts for air defence purposes.

Oh and of course Tau air caste options are very good with a-10's, heros, mantas etc, putting further pressure on them.

And thumbs up for the 2-3 planes, 75 points each

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So bad from both perspectives? 2 negatives.


Again 2 negatives.


1 negative, 1 positive.


Only problem with this is that they don't always enjoy that range

All in all a lot of negatives in comparison to positives. Thanks for showing these up more Morgan

isn't it great; the ability to misquote to justify a perspective?

I cannot believe this is still being discussed.

Is there anyone other than dobbsy that believes these need to be changed?

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Actually, it's a negative and a positive. The second pip I was referring to was the 360 AA6+, that the ThunderBolt doesn't enjoy. So I call that a wash.

The GA is down without ML's, and equivalent with.

Range is at the determination of the firer. If you fly in indiscriminately, of course not. If you plan with regards the rest of the army, I think they can.

The problem is, there's no real fix I can see that doesn't make the Barracuda superior to the TBolt, and no points cut within the generally proscribed '25pt allotments' that could do it.

I suggested a possible solution in another thread, but that's already been dismissed. Can't see it being fixed. Oh, and the option of 3 fighters? Didn't we already have that argument with Hellblades? Three fighters offers a near impunity to most AA effects. There's a reason why lead/wingman replaced three man V formations in fighter combat.

Morgan Vening

Derision brings nothing to the debate FB. If you prefer to stay out of this conversation if you don't like that it's still running, feel free.

dobbsy

All I would ask is that you stop being smug and misquoting people or asking what their history of play is. It really adds nothing to the debate and I personally find it quite childish. In fact, it extends it to a point where we are discussing the same thing because you will not yeild to what the majority (all except you it appears) is stating - with no real sight of it effecting a change in people's opinions.

A bit of give and take is needed from you.

Respond as you need. As far as I, and it appears the AC is concerned, the issue is closed. You have said your peace.

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I'll ask what I want thanks.

Steve I was asking because I was curious to know where your info comes from, as it seems different to what I see here. Cheers for replying.

So much AA in this list it aint funny, you should try to play Feral Orks.

So that no one misses my comment from the AA discussion.

http://www.tacticalwargames.net/forums....y346596

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Best solution I can think of would be to trade the Seeker attack for a Missile Pod.  

The model has a missile pod, so that is not an issue.  Yes, that ignores that it can carry Seekers, but we're ignoring the Missile POd now, so that isn't a big deal.

It gives a slight bump in GA firepower which should bring it on par with the T-Bolt.