Well back in E40k there was the Deathray which automatically caused a Critical Hit if they caused damage.

Actual Titankiller weapons whrer introduced in Wh40k with the Imperial Armour books.
With Wh40k Apocalypse Titankiller was replaced with Strength D (D = Destroyer) weapons.

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The first mention of 'Titan Killer' weapons was in the Imperial Armour softcover books for 3rd edition, closely followed by the VDR (I think, may have that backwards), circa 2000.

I'm not sure about Space Marine/Adeptus Titanicus rules, but what I've seen makes them look a lot like E:A for weapon stats.

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"For the Lion and the Emperor!"

I think the question, "Is it fearless or not?" still needs to be addressed, without recourse to playing.

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Honda

"Remember Taros? We do"

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

I think it should be fearless, otherwise it'll be over-vulnerable.

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How about an executive decision?  

As Acting Army Champion, just tell us what the stats are *supposed* to be; there doesn't seem to be any need for a debate over a possible *typo*.

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How about a slightly different question?

Did you ever discuss *removing* Fearless?  If not, then it's almost certainly a typo, and should be added back in.

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"For the Lion and the Emperor!"

It was intentional, but I would be happy to see it back in.

Kinda back to the original post.  I more or less designed the current Manta stats back in the Air Caste thread.  The questions brought up by TRC were intentional and not misprints.

As was stated earlier in this thread the goal was to give the Manta equivalent firepower/resilience to the Reaver.  Why?  Well, that it fit the description in the fluff is part of it.  Really though the biggest reason was to make the cost of the Manta reasonable.  At Warlord level firepower it would need a Warlord level cost.  How many people play with Titans that expensive?  By going for a Reaver level it makes it much easier to get the Manta on the table, which was my real goal.  To make it playable, but not a no-brainer.  I have used a Manta in all of my 5.x games since the change and it has done well, although not overpowering.  I play with it, because I love the model.

So, the seeker missiles were removed as a way to reduce the volume of attacks coming out of the Manta.  It would not be game breaking to put them back in.

The ML was removed as part of a blanket decision to not have MLs on an Air Caste unit.  As that seemed too powerful to be able to fly them in wherever.  I think that decision effected the Manta too as we still had not figured out what it's movement would be like at that point.

Fearless was left off for fluff reasons.  It is an Air Caste transport pressed into frontline combat duty.  My thoughts would be that there could be an Ethereal Upgrade available for the Manta.  That would give it Fearless and fit the 40k scale FW model too.  SC was not given as an option because again, this is an Air Caste unit and it didn't seem to fit with what we know of a Shas'el/O to command from a Manta, nor would the Fire Caste accept command from a an Air Caste member.

A real effort was made to simplify the thing so it could be balanced for a reasonable cost and as a result be played with more often.  Hope that helps.

Thanks for the run down Shmitty.

It certainly would be different to play with a non fearless Titan! Do you think though it would be fair to compensate that with a raising of the DC to 10? Once it breaks every man and his dog is going to be firing heavy bolter shots at it!

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DC 10 would be an option for sure.

Fearless could work, but honestly hasn't been an issue in the games I have used a Manta.

A better solution to me would be a price drop.  It doesn't need to be a Titan equivalent in every way.  Rather than pack every ability or weapon on it we can, let's keep the price reasonable so it can see more play.

There is a fair chance it is undercosted at this point.  Fearless would probably fix that, but so could a points decrease.

With a small points decrease you could then add the option of placing an Ethereal aboard.  That would make it Fearless and give it Leader.  Not too shabby.  Fits the model, fits the fluff.

That's an interesting idea. Maybe just say it has an ethereal aboard (perferably with inspiring, though I know it will never happen - I personally love the idea of things feeling before it as it hovers menacingly forward! Who else uses  flying saucer for their Manta! Cows be scared!)? Personally I'd like the keep the points of the Manta and hero (with supreme commander as an option) at or a bit under a 1000 as I think the planetfall is/was powerful and with all the AA that covers it having interceptors as well is a bit much at 3000!

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General Plumer, 191x

I lie that image...funny stuff.

IF Ethereals really are going to be 0-1 per army, it should use the same upgrade option as the Firewarriors, so you can't have 2 in the army.  The upgrade is already 0-1, just let it apply to the Manta or a stand of Firewarriors.  I am pretty sure Ethereals are rare enough that there shouldn't be more than 1 in an army.

I am not sure I get what you are saying on the points:

Hero + Manta > 1000

or

Hero + Manta + Barracuda > 1000?

Former.

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'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913
"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x

Right, what Shmitty said.

Also an influencing tidbit for the Manta not being fearless is that in IA3, while the Tau were blowing the beejeebers out of the evacuating Imperial forces, in some instances using Mantas, the Raptor Legion chased off the Mantas with Landspeeders.

Why I think this is significant is that if I remember the TO&E correctly, the Raptors didn't have a ton of these available, which would imply that the Tau were not too eager to bear the brunt of their assault in order to continue their bombardments.

So to help Chroma, executive decision that re-affirms earlier decisions, not Fearless.

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Honda

"Remember Taros? We do"

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

not Fearless.

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