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EA Tau - Rules Questions
Irondeath
 Post subject: EA Tau - Rules Questions
PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 9:10 pm 
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If you get that many targets under your template, someone isn´t paying attention and deserves a drubbing.

I´d regard 6-8 units covered as very, very good with 4BP!




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Lion in the Stars
 Post subject: EA Tau - Rules Questions
PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 9:12 pm 
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A direct translation of 40k tau to Epic would result in: death incarnate @ 15cm, very nasty @ 30-45cm, and merely dangerous at longer ranges (75cm for rails, GMs need to have marked targets to be used, period).  That would also describe my ideal fix for the list.  Since we can't make the list death incarnate @ 15cm, we need to think a little farther outside the box.

Tau are described as never taking and holding ground, not even cities.  Tau should almost always be on the move, and should be heavily mechanized.  That said, Patient Hunter = ambush tactics, so there should be forward-garrisoning of some troops.  These troops would have been inserted before the battle started by Orca, most likely.

How would this translate to E:A list construction?  most/all FW in Devilfish for shortrange work.  Pathfinders and Tetras operating ahead and on the flanks, marking targets for the GMs to kill.  Hammerheads using speed and range to kill AVs before the AVs can fire on the HHeads.  Titans would be handled by AX10s, Morays, or "Orca bombers" (spoken: Scorpfish).  Mantas would drop an entire cadre + support formations and lead the attack at the schwerpunkt.

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Lion in the Stars
 Post subject: EA Tau - Rules Questions
PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 9:19 pm 
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You're right, anyone bunching up like that in the presence of BP-artillery deserves a sound thrashing.  

Infantry sheltering next to vehicles make it fairly easy to get a lot of units under the template, though.  

Should an army that has no BP-weapons in it suffer because there's nothing to prevent the enemy from clustering?  This army shouldn't gain excessively from trying to counterpart BP-weapons without using the BP mechanic, either.

The problem is how the BP chart scales compared to non-BP weapons.

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Dobbsy
 Post subject: EA Tau - Rules Questions
PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 10:23 pm 
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Strawman, nice. I never said anything of the like, and you know it.

My questions were rhetorical Zombo so of course I know it....

Tau should be a shooty army, but that doesn't mean it has to be a gunline. Background wise, the Tau are a very mobile army, constantly on the move. They don't just standstill and shoot. Sure, certain units stay back and fire the GMs, but other units move in to markerlight the target. Currently the list just doesn't play like that at all
Err, actually, yes it does. You just refuse to admit, or see, it does.

You can't translate "constantly on the move" in Epic. You have to take objectives and stand on them. Tau do this by hammering the enemy at range because they don't do so well in close due to the artificial design on them - then move on the objective. They are mobile but they use it in a different manner in Epic than you perceive.

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Ginger
 Post subject: EA Tau - Rules Questions
PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 11:29 pm 
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Dobbsy Onyx (and others), LiTS has laid out quite succinctly how he sees the Tau working in principle - do you agree with that vision?

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Dobbsy
 Post subject: EA Tau - Rules Questions
PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 12:36 am 
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Dobbsy Onyx (and others), LiTS has laid out quite succinctly how he sees the Tau working in principle - do you agree with that vision?

In general yes, however...

Since we can't make the list death incarnate @ 15cm
This kills the theory IMO. Without this we're forced to make the Tau long range killers as they do not function well in close. So we have to make do with the way it's designed now.

How would this translate to E:A list construction?  most/all FW in Devilfish for shortrange work.  Pathfinders and Tetras operating ahead and on the flanks, marking targets for the GMs to kill.  Hammerheads using speed and range to kill AVs before the AVs can fire on the HHeads.  Titans would be handled by AX10s, Morays, or "Orca bombers" (spoken: Scorpfish).  Mantas would drop an entire cadre + support formations and lead the attack at the schwerpunkt

This is how it pretty much functions already....
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zombocom
 Post subject: EA Tau - Rules Questions
PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 12:46 am 
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Quote: (Lion in the Stars @ 13 Oct. 2008, 21:12 )

A direct translation of 40k tau to Epic would result in: death incarnate @ 15cm, very nasty @ 30-45cm, and merely dangerous at longer ranges (75cm for rails, GMs need to have marked targets to be used, period).  That would also describe my ideal fix for the list.  Since we can't make the list death incarnate @ 15cm, we need to think a little farther outside the box.

Precisely how I see it, with one exception. Why can't we make them death incarnate at 15cm? 15cm ranged shooting that is, rather than firefights obviously?

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Onyx
 Post subject: EA Tau - Rules Questions
PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 2:16 am 
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I've thought about how to make the Tau Death Incarnate at 15cm but all I could come up with was inceasing the Crisis Suit 15cm MW attack to 3+ (or even 2+). I believe it would still be a one way trip for the Crisis Suits but with that kind of firepower, I'd be more tempted to use them. Are Crisis Suits deadly at close range in 40K? (oh thats right, all 40K battles are close range...)

Anything that forces the Tau that close to the enemy is really a death sentence for the Tau in Epic.

I also have strong reservations about GM's only being able to fire at lit targets. It would be too easy to remove their ability to fire and so the Scorpionfish and Stingrays wouldn't get used as much (of course that will please all those who believe these units shouldn't exist in the first place).
I just see this as too restrictive for Epic games.

This is how it pretty much functions already....

Generally, my thoughts are similar to dobbsy's previous post.

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zombocom
 Post subject: EA Tau - Rules Questions
PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 2:30 am 
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Quote: (Onyx @ 14 Oct. 2008, 02:16 )

I've thought about how to make the Tau Death Incarnate at 15cm but all I could come up with was inceasing the Crisis Suit 15cm MW attack to 3+ (or even 2+). I believe it would still be a one way trip for the Crisis Suits but with that kind of firepower, I'd be more tempted to use them. Are Crisis Suits deadly at close range in 40K? (oh thats right, all 40K battles are close range...)


If the Tau Jet Pack rule changed to hit and run, getting close wouldn't be suicide, as they'd be able to shoot then leap away.

Quote: (Onyx @ 14 Oct. 2008, 02:16 )

Anything that forces the Tau that close to the enemy is really a death sentence for the Tau in Epic.


Then something is wrong with the epic list, because background wise that's how tau operate.

Quote: (Onyx @ 14 Oct. 2008, 02:16 )


I also have strong reservations about GM's only being able to fire at lit targets. It would be too easy to remove their ability to fire and so the Scorpionfish and Stingrays wouldn't get used as much (of course that will please all those who believe these units shouldn't exist in the first place).
I just see this as too restrictive for Epic games.


Sure it'd be risky, but GMs could be powered up to compensate (increased to hit values or increased range). It's how GMs work in the background and all other rules versions. The "unguided" fire mode is a total invention for this version of the epic list.




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Dobbsy
 Post subject: EA Tau - Rules Questions
PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 4:07 am 
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Sure it'd be risky, but GMs could be powered up to compensate (increased to hit values or increased range).

Oh! Splendid. I can foresee upgunning the missiles will provide us with years of "debate" here in Tau land, that they are too strong etc etc.

I'll take your criticisms more seriously if you show me some playtest results of your proposals vs the current list. I'm pretty sure not one of your group has posted more than one or two batreps if at all.... "Can't be arsed" was the general attitude I believe....

If you want change you need to start providing hard data IMO. Talk is cheap. It seems even among your group that you all don't agree on what should be done to the individual unit types. So we get endless unsubstantiated calls to "change this!" or "change that!" Show me how a shooty army can be played without the gunline being involved in any way. [I]Show me how your proposals all being used together works.

I'd love you to I really would. Perhaps then we can get away from the endless circle of debate we're locked into.

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zombocom
 Post subject: EA Tau - Rules Questions
PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 4:19 am 
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Dobbsy: I don't think you quite understand my ethos. I don't want a couple of changes to ballance the list, I want a complete rethink of large aspects of the list to improve the playstyle and better fit the background.

I can't test anything until a list exists to test. I'm throwing a lot of ideas out, and I don't expect them all to be taken up. Please don't assume that I'm trying to insist they all are. I can't show playtests of my suggestions against the current list, since I'm not sure what my suggestions are yet, I'm just doing an extended brainstorm at the moment.

Once enough ideas have been thrown out and discussion has taken place I will put forward a version of the Tau list as I think it should be. I don't have a solid view of it yet, but once I do I will write it up. I don't see the point in testing incremental changes when I think a radical overhaul is in order. Rearranging deckchairs on the titanic and all that.

And please leave the personal and by-proxy attacks on my playing group out of this. So what if we don't all agree? Noone seems to agree about anything Tau-wise.




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Dobbsy
 Post subject: EA Tau - Rules Questions
PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:25 am 
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Dobbsy: I don't think you quite understand my ethos. I don't want a couple of changes to ballance the list, I want a complete rethink of large aspects of the list to improve the playstyle and better fit the background.

And that's fine, just realise some of us don't. As I said, if you put these together and formulate a list test it then get back to us with data I would be thrilled to see the proposal. The problem is, as I said, that sort of info has been sorely lacking and all we get is rhetoric and theory which drags the list we do have off track. Just look at this thread. It's supposed to be a questions thread. Instead we've been arguing for the past 2-4 pages about Markerlights and how the Tau should function! It's a circular argument. You think the Tau list is boring. I think the entire way we debate it is boring.

I will put forward a version of the Tau list as I think it should be
No worries. Unfortunately I think over the past month or so we've had 6 different views of what people want and see as the way it should be and it goes no where. CS has decided to do it a certain way with what we have already so a new list to the fold isn't what we require.

And please leave the personal and by-proxy attacks on my playing group out of this. So what if we don't all agree?
Personal attacks? Hardly mate. I'm simply stating what has occured here over the past two years or so. Am I wrong in what I said? I think my quote was from E&C IIRC. If you feel what is fact to be an attack on you and/or your playing group then I apologise but you need to step back and re-read what I've written.  Look, I've not reported an encyclopedia's worth myself but I have reported on games when i have the chance. I truly can't say the same about your group - that's not an attack, it's a fact. Jstr19 has been closest to giving anything solid in regards to feedback or batreping.

How many batreps and actual gameplay feedback reports have you logged? I'm not on the attack here - I'm asking a question.

No one seems to agree about anything Tau-wise
Not truly surprising given everyone thinks their ideas are the gospel. Do you think adding another list design to the fold will help us solve anything?

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zombocom
 Post subject: EA Tau - Rules Questions
PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:45 am 
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Personal attacks? Hardly mate. I'm simply stating what has occured here over the past two years or so. Am I wrong in what I said?


"Can't be arsed" was the general attitude I believe....

Err, actually, yes it does. You just refuse to admit, or see, it does.

This shows, to me at least, that you've had very little experience with Tau yourself, Zombo.


I disagree with you, therefore I must have little experience or be refusing to admit that I'm wrong?

Those are personal attacks and unfair assumptions. Can we just leave them out? They don't help. Direct your attacks at my ideas, not at me.


How many batreps and actual gameplay feedback reports have you logged? I'm not on the attack here - I'm asking a question.


For the Tau? One, Vs Dark Eldar.
For other armies? Quite a few. I've posted five or six Necron battle reports, for example, so saying I "can't be arsed" is pretty unfair.


Not truly surprising given everyone thinks their ideas are the gospel. Do you think adding another list design to the fold will help us solve anything?


Given the dissatisfaction with the current list, yes I do. Once again, I don't expect anyone to play it, I just want to put it forward as an indication of the direction I (and the others who agree with my view) would like to see the list go forward.

My aim is of course for the current list to be modified in a way that makes most people happy. Currently that's not the case; my group has become so disenfranchised we've gone back to the FW list instead.

Until the direction we want to go is clarified then we won't be able to come up with a compromise.




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Onyx
 Post subject: EA Tau - Rules Questions
PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 8:40 am 
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For what it's worth, I don't believe the list needs an overhaul, just a tune up.

Quote: (Onyx @ 14 Oct. 2008, 02:16 )

I've thought about how to make the Tau Death Incarnate at 15cm but all I could come up with was inceasing the Crisis Suit 15cm MW attack to 3+ (or even 2+). I believe it would still be a one way trip for the Crisis Suits but with that kind of firepower, I'd be more tempted to use them. Are Crisis Suits deadly at close range in 40K? (oh thats right, all 40K battles are close range...)


If the Tau Jet Pack rule changed to hit and run, getting close wouldn't be suicide, as they'd be able to shoot then leap away.

That is a interesting idea that I hadn't considered fully. Hmmm...
The Crisis Suits would have to see an increase in their To-Hit numbers (mainly on the 15cm attack) and that might actually work.

Quote: (Onyx @ 14 Oct. 2008, 02:16 )

Anything that forces the Tau that close to the enemy is really a death sentence for the Tau in Epic.


Then something is wrong with the epic list, because background wise that's how tau operate.
In 40K thats how all armies have to operate because all the battles are short range skirmishes. That doesn't really help with Epic's larger battlefields.

Quote: (Onyx @ 14 Oct. 2008, 02:16 )


I also have strong reservations about GM's only being able to fire at lit targets. It would be too easy to remove their ability to fire and so the Scorpionfish and Stingrays wouldn't get used as much (of course that will please all those who believe these units shouldn't exist in the first place).
I just see this as too restrictive for Epic games.


Sure it'd be risky, but GMs could be powered up to compensate (increased to hit values or increased range). It's how GMs work in the background and all other rules versions. The "unguided" fire mode is a total invention for this version of the epic list.
Given the larger battlefields of Epic, the unguided fire mode is a playable/believable adaptation to the GM/ML rules.
I'd love to think that powered up GM's would be acceptable to everyone but somehow I can't see that happening here   :rock: .
They would need to be powered up a lot for it balance the fact that they may only fire 1 or 2 turns in a game. I can't see too many in favour of that.


Can anyone direct me to some good fluff/background material for the Tau? I've read the latest 40K Tau Codex. Is their anything more useful for this discussion? Any novels that help explain it all?
Thanks for any help.

Steve.

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Captain Jack
 Post subject: EA Tau - Rules Questions
PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 9:56 am 
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Can anyone direct me to some good fluff/background material for the Tau? I've read the latest 40K Tau Codex. Is their anything more useful for this discussion? Any novels that help explain it all?

The Forge World Taros campaign book has a great deal of fluff, as does the second aeronautica book..

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