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Discussions on the Tau.

Evil and Chaos

Post subject: Discussions on the Tau.

Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 11:57 am

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Broadside suits (and Crisis suits, for that matter) have an infantry statline in 40k (and a Broadside can roll a 2+ Armor Save against Missiles!). A Dreadnought is an armor 12-12-10 vehicle (front-side-rear)

Apologies, I guess I was having flashbacks to the days when Dreadnoughts had an infantry statline too (2nd ed) when they were damned tough to kill... I haven't used a Dreadnought in 40k since then!

S5 T4 W2 I2 A2 Sv3+
Broadside suit:

S5 T4 W2 I2 A2 Sv2+

Oh and it'll only take one wounding hit from a Lascannon to kill, because it's not immune to instant death.

By the same token, it takes a minimum of three wounding hits from Lascannons to kill 3 Crisis Suits.

Fluffwise, and balance-wise, Broadside Suits are too tough.

As you say, it takes an average of 7 Lascannon hits to kill one Leman Russ, but an average of... 1.16 Lascannon hits (The 0.16 comes from rolling a '1' to wound) to kill a Broadside suit.

Does this bit of Math-hammer answer your question? [/teacher mode]
(not trying to be rude here, honest, but it sure reads that way)

It's just not that tough, no matter how you use the maths.

it will NEVER take less than 3 Lascannons to kill a Broadside with 2 Shield Drones.

Unless you blat away the shield drones with Boltguns or similar first... then it takes one Lascannon.

If your Broadside suits want shield drone protection, they should take a 'drones' upgrade... to me the abstracted 'there are shield drones there too' doesn't cut it, as the Fire Warriors and Crisis Suits don't have their armour saves increased in this manner, only Broadside suits do.

- The way the army list is. It's too permissive in its upgrade for everything

I don't think this helps (See my comment about Crisis suits below, for example. Average on their own, awesome with Drones).

* The drone's 'note' special rule effectively gives Crisis suits something akin to 'Know no Fear' whilst they remain alive, which is why Crisis Suits are awesome, not their basic abilities, but the ability to take cheap as chips drones to act as cannon fodder, using them as shield drones, essentially.

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Ginger

Post subject: Discussions on the Tau.

Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 12:04 pm

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(Evil and Chaos @ May 19 2008,11:36)

QUOTE

(Ginger @ May 19 2008,00:23)

QUOTE

Well, as I think we may have at least two Tau in the London tournament "experimental" day (Sunday 29th June), I hope we can see some of these points being proved / disproved. Which brings a thought - can you suggest a simple way to track the way "overpowered" formations or armies are performing? (also a topic for a new thread I think)

Percentage-based win-loss stats for all armies, rather than a points-based league.

I think that's why I've been saying percentage-based stats would be good ever since the 'championship' was started.

I am actually thinking at a more detailed level here. For example, army list make up is one aspect that will tend to highlight the "better" formations - so for example if I see no Morays or lots of Morays, that will be one indication of how they are felt to perform. During the game if the opponent fires everything at them (including the kitchen sink) and they survive unscratched and have wiped out half the enemy etc that may just be bad dice (or my luck

) - or it might just indicate the unit is over-powered (average "luck" on the dice) etc.

So, what I think we may need here (and in the other "experimental" armies is perhaps a list of those units that are considered 'excentric' in some way so that we can provide the participants with some form of crib sheet to note the actual effects in the game. Combinations of units/formations are a bit harder to track (eg Tau Drones / markerlight), but it may be possible to handle them in a similar way

Note, given two Tau armies and ideal organisation, we will only get 6 games so it will be inconclusive at best - but may just give a hint as to whether the 'accusations' are well founded or not.

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Onyx

Post subject: Discussions on the Tau.

Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 12:14 pm

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(The_Real_Chris @ May 19 2008,15:52)

QUOTE

(Onyx @ May 19 2008,01:57)

QUOTE

My little gaming group believe it's more about how you play against Tau that will gain victory, not -
'we can't beat them if we play the way we play against other armies, so we have to nerf the Tau to allow us to keep playing our style of game'.

Out of interest what ways am I missing. For example the skimming tank horde has to be shot with artillary as far as I can tell (or other 'deep strike' style attacks that aren't cc based).

The GM horde seems to need all its markerlights killed fast enough to stop you getting mauled (tricky turn one, have to hope the tigersharks arent carrying too many ml drones and the pathfinders are getting used up quick to have a hope turn 2).

Far be it from me to try to instruct you in the art of tactics TRC.
You are, after all, the expert in breaking lists... ? :;):

Point is, they require different tactics and army set-up (and thats been understood by beginners and more experienced players here).

And these "non cannon" or "fan made" comments aren't really constructive. What will these people say if/when GW adopt these units (aren't Obelisks semi official now)? Suddenly they're ok now...?
Lets concentrate on the units and their abilites.
On paper, a ScorpionFish and a Moray may seem quite similar, but on the battlefield they play quite differently.

ML Sentry Drones definately do have something to do in the "standard" tournament army list.
As I've already stated clearly - There's no such thing as overpowered, but something can be underpriced. ML Sentry Drones should see a price increase to balance their great abilities and STAY in the list.

Lion in the Stars - wow... umm can I get a simple translation? ? :blush:

If a Crisis suit saves on 3+ should a Broadsides save on RA5+? I'd be ok with that.

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: Discussions on the Tau.

Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 12:23 pm

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And these "non cannon" or "fan made" comments aren't really constructive.

As (IIRC NealHunt) once pointed out to me, it's spelt 'canon', as in 'canonical'.

Cannons are things that Pirates use.

What will these people say if/when GW adopt these units?

I would say 'cool'. It hasn't happened yet though.

(aren't Obelisks semi official now)?

They have a presence in the fandom. The website 'Bell of Lost Souls' published a 'how-to' on constructing your own Obelisk in 28mm scale.

If a Crisis suit saves on 3+ should a Broadsides save on RA5+? I'd be ok with that.

Sounds cool to me too.

Alternatively, a 3+ save, with an Invulnerable Save to represent the Shield Drones.

That still leaves them very tough, but without the unreasonable resilience to Macro Weapons (Why do Broadsides get a save vs. Macro-Weapons and Crisis Suits don't? Fluffwise you've got 6 wounds and 6 shield drones to get through on the Crisis suits, but only 2 wounds and 2 shields to kill to nab a Broadside).

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Onyx

Post subject: Discussions on the Tau.

Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 12:45 pm

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(Evil and Chaos @ May 19 2008,19:23)

QUOTE

And these "non cannon" or "fan made" comments aren't really constructive.

As (IIRC NealHunt) once pointed out to me, it's spelt 'canon', as in 'canonical'.

Cannons are things that Pirates use.

I like Pirates...

(Great game).

If you feel that my misspelling has an effect on the Tau list then thanks for pointing it out :glare:

.

* OT - Obelisk's are also available for download from SpecialistGames (as part of the Necron Playtest Figures). Thats stretching it I know but they're there

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: Discussions on the Tau.

Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 12:08 am

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I don't think that the Scorpionfish is much overpowered. Certainly it doesn't compete too much over the upgunned Baneblade.

If you run the numbers, I reckon the Scorpionfish will hit more targets when sustaining fire than a Baneblade, most especially if those targets are in cover (6x AP3+, ignore cover is awesome!).

It's also noteable that four of the Baneblade's weapons are 30cm range, and don't tend to have an impact for most of the game ; When a Scorpionfish gets to fire, it's either on or off, lots of shots or none... and its range is not 30cm.

In addition, the Scorp is 10cm faster, is a skimmer, and can fire without LOS, so its lesser armour should never even matter if all goes in the Tau's favour.

Its main weakness is massed long-range AT fire... which is never going to get a chance to shoot at it as it's going to be tucked away behind a building all game...

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Onyx

Post subject: Discussions on the Tau.

Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 1:20 am

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(Evil and Chaos @ May 20 2008,07:08)

QUOTE

I don't think that the Scorpionfish is much overpowered. Certainly it doesn't compete too much over the upgunned Baneblade.

A scorpionFish can only fire without line of sight if the opponent is lit up. It cannot sustain fire otherwise without leaving itself exposed to return fire.

And being tucked away is no defence against artillery or DeathStrikes.

And Hena, there's no way we're going to use the Orca model for our ScorpionFish! At that size it should be 10DC!

We're currently using some CAV APC proxies. They're about the same size as the old SG Baneblades (3DC) so that works for us.

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Onyx

Post subject: Discussions on the Tau.

Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 6:38 am

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(Hena @ May 20 2008,12:15)

QUOTE

(Onyx @ May 20 2008,03:20)

QUOTE

We're currently using some CAV APC proxies. They're about the same size as the old SG Baneblades (3DC) so that works for us.

If you use smaller model, you make the craft better

. It's supposed to be Orca, but with different innards and incapable of flight. So heavier armour changes the profile from DC2 with 4+ save to DC3 with 5+RA save.

But of course if it works for you then please do continue

. However then you have a bit boosted version of the tank in use.

I know its' an Orca (I have played over 20 games with the Tau and of course have read all the rules aswell) but all FW vehicles are too big (really AI scale).
Thats widely known.

So a smaller proxy is not giving me a better vehicle. If SG made it, it would be smaller. Thunderhawks anyone...?!

Just because someone doesn't want (or can't afford) to use FW Orca's doesn't make them a cheat...

There's no doubt that the ScorpionFish is better but it does cost more so whats the problem?

*(I have already stated that I could see a small ScorpionFish price increase as workable and fair, 25 to 50pts tops)

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CyberShadow

Post subject: Discussions on the Tau.

Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 9:45 am

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Just to let you know that I am following this, and will post a response as soon as I can.

I also dont use the Orca as a ScorpFish, and use a BFG vessel instead. However, the stats are Orca based whatever model you use.

Thanks.

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: Discussions on the Tau.

Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 11:24 am

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A scorpionFish can only fire without line of sight if the opponent is lit up. It cannot sustain fire otherwise without leaving itself exposed to return fire.

If you have a Scorp in your army, then you're probably going to have several, and your entire army will be set up as a markerlight-missile horde.

So yeah, I'd assume its target is always markerlit.

And being tucked away is no defence against artillery or DeathStrikes.

Well, it gets a 4+ save against Deathstrike hits if it's the SC... Deathstrikes are a special case though, and they really should be targetted against the Morays in any case (I don't get why you don't use Morays, they're probably the easiest unit in the Tau list to get their points-worth in kills with, regardless of configuration).

As for normal artillery, it should suffer an average of about 0.4 DC of damage each time artillery fires at it (Two attacks, One hit, Most of which will be saved by the 5+ RA armour).

I have already stated that I could see a small ScorpionFish price increase as workable and fair, 25 to 50pts tops

I think 50pts was what I proposed as a price rise.

but all FW vehicles are too big (really AI scale).
Thats widely known.

They're not too big, they're true 6mm scale.

It's the SG aircraft and War Engines that are (Mostly) too small, and not in scale with the rest of the game.

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Magarch

Post subject: Discussions on the Tau.

Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 11:32 am

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About the "specially created" units for the army list (instead of saying "fan made", since you don't like that term), I don't really understand you. You're saying it's impossible to remove them because they are here for so long, but you don't have to...Just make a collector section like for the "old Epic unit/FW units" in the other lists and include the Scorpionship, Moray and the likes in it. In this way, you can still play them in friendly games.

I disagree with the tendancy on TC to be "forced" to create many units while not really official (same for Dark Eldars, Necrons and Tyranids, after all). Why ? You can make a list with what exists already - and for the Tau, it's even more true since there is a whole army made by FW.

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: Discussions on the Tau.

Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 11:56 am

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I think it's a relic of the 'Fanatic ethos':

- Fanatic, at its most ambitious, when they got around to releasing new miniature lines, intended to make the entire existing line from 40k / the background, and then add a new unit or two.

This ethos was then carried over without modification through downsizing of Fanatic ('Sorry guys, no new models, but keep the new vehicles in anyway!'), and the disbandment of Fanatic ('Rather than dissapoint the people who've scratchbuilt their new vehicles, just leave them in the experimental lists, even if we'll never release the new models...)

Basically, we're left with an echo of the grand plan of the early days of Fanatic, with a bunch of new vehicles in army lists, but no models (And there never will be models either... When Forgeworld had a chance to ratify the variant vehicles in the Tau Epic list, they removed every single one before publication rather than sculpt the new models, several of which (Being flyers/skimmers) would have been appropriate additions to their Aeronautica Imperialis game....).

So yeah, the units exist in the army lists because that was Fanatic's original brief, more or less.

To me, the Moray and the Scorpionfish do actually fit well with the Tau army list, at least in concept (I don't reckon that the Stingray does however, but that's a personal opinion)... but you're right that for an army that does have most of its models in production right now, they do seem extraneous, especially as the Tau list would probably remain absolutely fine if they were removed (Or it might even reveal that Morays & Scorpionfishes have become the Warhound-crutch of the Tau list...).

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