Range on Seeker Missiles |
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Evil and Chaos
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Post subject: Range on Seeker Missiles  Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 10:41 pm |
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Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
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1) its replacing one non-fluff representation of all guided munitions with another version of a specialized guided munition at a longer range than the rest - which may be worse of a franchise history violation than 75cm guided munitions
The only representation of Seeker missile ranges we currently have is from 40k... in actuality we don't know whether all seeker missiles are born equal.
I think it's highly likely that the long-range Seeker strikes are performed by Skyrays, as a tactical consideration (Seekers on the tanks are kept for instant supporting fire during closer engagements)
Calling them 'advanced' Seekers is an abstraction representing their normal use on the battlefield. You could just as easily use another label like 'tactical' or 'precision'.
2) complicates the list with yet another weapon type which I hope is unnecessary
This is true, it would be a distinct weapon type. For a distinct vehicle.
3) Adds even longer range to AA umbrella which cannot happen for reasons already discussed.
I didn't mention the Hunter missile. That would stay the same, as would the rest of the Tau list. (Well, maybe AA could come off Ionheads if Skyrays started to be seen as less of a lame-duck choice, but that'd be a down-the-road kind of thing).
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Tactica
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Post subject: Range on Seeker Missiles Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 10:53 pm |
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Actually, BFG uses gravitic salvos - unless I'm mistaken.
In core design and fluff, the value of the skyray is self launching seekers, fires at multiple targets, and unsurpassed AA range, accuracy, effectiveness while still representing a MBT of firepower vs the toughest and most heavily armored ground assets.
However if you remove its marker lights, two different target ability, lower the effectiveness of a seeker's damage to a vehicle, and discount the fact that it has more shots than other vehicles carrying seekers...
then it has the same seeker as a piranha or a HH.
Creating a weapon for it where the HH does not have it is in contradiction with fluff.
As we agree, its also adding a weapon to the list.
I'm not keen on going over a 100cm with any tau weapon as we are walking a delicate balance of range we can engage the enemy, how fast we move, and still being able to be engaged by ground based armies.
I do not want to see a tau army that sits static with every vehicle, advances all infantry to mark, then sustain fires from the other side of the table every turn. that's not the Tau way at all.
90cm is much safer.
I also feel that creating weapons unnecessarily is a bad way to go if we can make what we have work and satisfy all concerns.
Regards to the Hunter, you are correct - I forgot that CS made that distinction and gave the Skyray two seperate types of missiles. So hunter would not be modified, regardless of "who's" proposal CS felt more comfortable with - if any. 
Cheers,
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Rob
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Lion in the Stars
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Post subject: Range on Seeker Missiles Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 12:07 am |
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The problem with the change to the Skyray is that a Skyray uses the same missiles to attack tanks that it uses to attack aircraft (despite CS' splitting the weapons into two different lines), as Tactica points out. Actually, the difference between the two missile systems would reflect the 40k rule about ground weapons having a shorter effective range against aircraft.
E&C, while you may be right about the Skyray as the primary source of long-ranged Seeker strikes, you're forgetting the seekers on the Piranhas, which were described as one of the sources of long-range seeker fire supporting Remote Sentry Turrets.
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Evil and Chaos
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Post subject: Range on Seeker Missiles Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 12:22 am |
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Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
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Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
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The problem with the change to the Skyray is that a Skyray uses the same missiles to attack tanks that it uses to attack aircraft (despite CS' splitting the weapons into two different lines), as Tactica points out. Actually, the difference between the two missile systems would reflect the 40k rule about ground weapons having a shorter effective range against aircraft.
Indeed.
So, what was originally a list descrepancy can be used to the list's advantage?
E&C, while you may be right about the Skyray as the primary source of long-ranged Seeker strikes, you're forgetting the seekers on the Piranhas, which were described as one of the sources of long-range seeker fire supporting Remote Sentry Turrets.
Aye, but Piranhas are typically deployed further forward than Skyrays, so the abstract tactical situation remains the same?
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Lion in the Stars
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Post subject: Range on Seeker Missiles Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 1:48 am |
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Not necessarily. Piranhas are a fast attack unit, and (at least in 40k) significantly faster than Hammerheads. They would be used like helicopters, either scouting ahead of the advance or on the flanks, or as a rapid-reaction force behind the Tau lines.
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Honda
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Post subject: Range on Seeker Missiles Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 1:24 pm |
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Location: Katy, Republic of Texas
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- All GROUND based guided munitions going from 75cm to 90cm (note, could not affect AA or Aircraft mounted weaponry)
I could support this for testing, though I am leery.
- ion losing AA (hopefully not getting worse in stats)
I'm not in favor of this as I do not see an issue that causes a game or list imbalance.
- DF gain SMS & lose burst cannon (possible point adjust)
I'm not in favor of dropping the burst cannon. It never comes off of the 40K DF. Cost the access to the SMS appropriately and call it a day.
- BS going to LV and single shot (possible point adjust)
When did this show up? I thought we were discussing getting larger formations and leaving stats as is, even though there is disagreement on the INF/LV issue.
- FW losing disrupt shot for x2 30cm shots
I can support this proposal.
- PF change to add sniper to gun, not unit special rule
I can support this proposal.
- Tiger going to FighterBomber from Bomber only
I can support this.
- MLST going to individual units instead of formation
I understand that there is some desire to move from where we are, but I haven't seen that a change is necessary. I can support the proposed points reduction.
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Honda
"Remember Taros? We do"
- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment
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Lion in the Stars
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Post subject: Range on Seeker Missiles Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 7:25 pm |
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I am also a bit leery of changing the range on Seekers, but I think that a 90cm range will not make that much of a difference. It actually helps the Support Craft, and isn't a huge change to the rest of the units armed with Seekers and Submunition Misiles (Tracers are Support-Craft only).
- No, the Devilfish gains the SMS in addition to the Burst Cannon, much like a Predator-D has an Autocannon in the turret and Heavy bolters in the sponsons, or how a Wave Serpent has the twin Shuricannon in addition to the twin shuricats. The SMS upgrade replaces the Gun Drones, not the Burst Cannon. Burst cannon goes to 15cm AP5+.
- IF Broadsides are going to be LV, they should be mounted one (+2 Drones)per base. Therefore, they only get one shot per base. If they are going to be Infantry, their statline can stay the same.
- RST's should either be Individual units, or formations of 3, not larger. A larger formation doesn't add any real resilience to the formation, since all you need is one markerlight-equipped unit to threaten an opponent's force. My preference is for Individual units, but I can live with a formation size of 3. (Formations give a little more protection to the RSTs in a CC engagement, which is not necessarily desirable)
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Tactica
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Post subject: Range on Seeker Missiles Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 9:28 pm |
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Honda,
See the BS thread. CS is suggesting that we change the current BS LV unit (stand) of 3 models + 2-6 drones to actual LV status of 1 broadside with 0-2 drones.
He's also suggesting that it go to a single shot, not 2x shot per stand.
Cheers,
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Rob
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CyberShadow
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Post subject: Range on Seeker Missiles Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 2:44 pm |
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Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 6:22 pm
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Location: Singapore
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I just wanted to weigh in here and state that I cant see any reasono to increase missile ranges. They seem to be working fine, and I dont think that an increased range is necessary of particularly justified.
_________________ https://www.cybershadow.ninja - A brief look into my twisted world, including wargames and beyond. https://www.net-armageddon.org - The official NetEA (Epic Armageddon) site and resource.
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Lion in the Stars
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Post subject: Range on Seeker Missiles Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 2:57 am |
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If you don't mind, I'm still going to try to get some testing done with the 90cm range. I don't think it's going to revolutionize the way the Tau army works, but the possibility is there that the change will completely unbalance the list. The only way to know is by testing the longer range.
(See my earlier post regarding why I think that the range should increase, and Tactica's comments on page 2 about the Scorpionfish's inability to engage Shadowswords.)
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CyberShadow
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Post subject: Range on Seeker Missiles Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 2:13 pm |
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Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 6:22 pm
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Location: Singapore
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No problem. Test away and report back, but it is going to be difficult to change my mind on this one. Thanks.
_________________ https://www.cybershadow.ninja - A brief look into my twisted world, including wargames and beyond. https://www.net-armageddon.org - The official NetEA (Epic Armageddon) site and resource.
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