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Devilfish with SMS
Lion in the Stars
 Post subject: Devilfish with SMS
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 10:41 pm 
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To separate this discussion from the Fire Warrior discussion.

In 40k, there is an upgrade available to Devilfish that replaces the Gun Drones with a Smart Missile System.  It's a huge increase in the firepower to the squad.

In Epic, it'd change the Devilfish from this:

(Tau v4.4 @ page 10)
QUOTE
AV, 30cm, 5+sv, 6+cc, 6+ff
Burst Cannon & Gun Drones:  15cm AP4+ -
Seeker Missiles:  75cm AT6+ Guided Missiles
Notes: Skimmer, Transport (may carry two of the following units: Fire Warriors, Pathfinders)

To this:
AV, 30cm, 5+sv, 6+cc, 6+ff
Burst Cannon:  15cm AP5+ -
Smart Missile System:  30cm AP5+ Ignore Cover
Seeker Missiles:  75cm AT6+ Guided Missiles
Notes: Skimmer, Transport (may carry two of the following units: Fire Warriors, Pathfinders)


Note:  30cm AP5+ Ignore Cover is a proposed change to the Smart Missiles across the board, which I believe that CS is going to apply in v4.4.1.  CS, could you confirm this?

This change would make a Devilfish (currently 25 points) broadly comparable to a Wave Serpent (currently 50 points).

I would raise the price of the Devilfish to at least 37.5 points each (raising the cost of the Devilfish upgrade (4 'Fish) for a Fire Warrior Cadre to 150 points vice 100, and a Pathfinder 'Contingent' (2 'Fish) to 25 points instead of free).  The cost for a single Devilfish (as in a Pathfinder Upgrade) would be 25 points.

I know that Hena does not particularly like the idea, and I do see his point, it sets an odd precedent for vehicles in Epic being armed as a standard with a weapon that's an upgrade in 40k.  

To counter that point, I'd point out the Razorbacks that Marines can get with either the (standard in 40k) twin Heavy Bolters, or the (optional in 40k) twin Lascannon.

Comments?

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Devilfish with SMS
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 10:46 pm 
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If in doubt I'd go with WYSIWYG... the stock Devilfish models are armed with Gun Drones I think?

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Tactica
 Post subject: Devilfish with SMS
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 10:55 pm 
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I don't think there's any significant doubt where I stand. Many of us want to see the FW + DF change as has already been articulated in the FW thread.




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Lion in the Stars
 Post subject: Devilfish with SMS
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 1:00 am 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Aug. 29 2006,22:46)
QUOTE
If in doubt I'd go with WYSIWYG... the stock Devilfish models are armed with Gun Drones I think?

You're right, stock Devilfish are equipped with Gun Drones.  What about the AX10?  FW created the AX10, and yet doesn't make an Epic model. I'll ignore the Stingray, Moray, and Scorpionfish, which we on the Epic list created to fill shortfalls in capability.

What Tac, Honda, and I are working from is that every 40k army list we've seen (since the option became available) with Mechanized Fire Warriors features Devilfish armed with SMS.

Adding a 30cm shot to the Devilfish creates a synergistic effect with the 2x 30cm shots on the Fire Warriors.

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Ilushia
 Post subject: Devilfish with SMS
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 4:47 am 
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Heavy bolters on Leman Russ also isn't standard armament (Side sponsons are optional). Indirect fire for Basilisks isn't standard. SM Dreadnoughts have two different load outs. Assault Cannon and Power Fist is standard. ML and LC is not. Tornados and Typhoons are both upgrades from a Land Speeder. Predator side-sponsons are optional. Plasma Cannons on Demolishers are optional. Heavy Weapon Platforms and Support Platforms for Eldar Guardians are optional. Weapons fit to the War Walker are all optional. As is the Wraithlord's weapon.

And that's not even including the experimental lists (Indirect Fire for Defilers, sonic weapons for Slaanesh Marines, all the weapons on virtually every tyranid unit are swappable).

Someone somewhere in all those lists decided 'this will be the army standard' and went with it. In many cases it IS the default weapon of the unit. In others it's not. Don't let the 'it's an upgrade' become the defining point of why or why not to use it as the army-standard. If the army characteristically fields them that way more often, and it's tactically more viable to do so, then that's likely a good enough idea unless it unbalances the game in some way.
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Ilushia
 Post subject: Devilfish with SMS
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 6:45 am 
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Right. But my point is that it's a matter of standardization inside the Epic list, not necessarially what the 'bare bones' version of the unit in 40K is, but what you want it to fill the role of in Epic. Opposing the change to DFs just because it's a non-standard weapon seems silly. If you're worried about balance or something that's reasonable, but opposing it because the weapon is an upgrade not a 'normal' weapon seems rather an odd choice.
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Devilfish with SMS
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 8:16 am 
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I'd be happy to see an upgrade option for the Devilfish to allow it to carry SMS (For the converters out there who want to use other Epic 'fish hulls that are equipped with SMS) since it would be fully WYSIWYG, but as a basic loadout it should be equipped the same as the stock model is equipped.

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Honda
 Post subject: Devilfish with SMS
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 1:03 pm 
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I think the real point is that there are step outs for all kinds of vehicles and so it really comes down to preference by the community.

So, if there are more in the community that want the option as standard, assuming that it is appropriately costed, then so be it.

The facts in this issue don't matter because there is no pattern.




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baronpiero
 Post subject: Devilfish with SMS
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 4:06 pm 
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I'm all for seing SMS put to field testing on the Devilfish.

I agree this should logically cause us to pay a premium for the Devilfish. But since SMS stats are being downgraded to AP5+ for all units throgout the list, meaning all gunships but the Devilfish will see their effectiveness reduced, I'd suggest keeping point cost unchanged for the moment.
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Lion in the Stars
 Post subject: Devilfish with SMS
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 6:29 pm 
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How about the Multimelta on Dreads that still shows up in blisters, even though it's not an option?

Hena, I just don't understand your opposition to this.  

By your definition, Predator-As should not have the Lascannon sponsons, Pred-Ds and Russes should not have the Heavy bolters, Demolishers should not have Plasma Cannons.  Land Speeders should not have Multimeltas, and Razorbacks should not have lascannons.  Basilisks (and Defilers) should not be able to shoot indirectly.  NO Tau vehicles should have Seeker missiles.  Broadsides should not have plasma rifles.  Tau statlines should not reflect the presence of drones.  I could keep going, but those are the items I can remember off the top of my head, and I really don't feel like downloading all the Epic army lists and comparing them to their 40k counterparts to see which units are armed as standard with weapons that are upgrades in 40k.

Every one of those options I've mentioned is an upgrade in 40k, yet the Epic units have those upgrades either because that's WPPI40k, or because it helps fill a lack of capability in the Epic list.  The Devilfish w/SMS actually fills both of those definitions.  It improves the capability of mechanized infantry to attack other infantry and it reflects WPPI40k.

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Tactica
 Post subject: Devilfish with SMS
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 8:14 pm 
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Actually,

We already add seekers to vehicles, which is a main driver of our list.

Our list is very different from anything else that's out there... just as the bugs list is very different from anything else that's out there.

+ + +

In so staying with your post

1) nobody is saying the SMS should be there JUST BECAUSE its an option in 40K.

2) The SMS on DF is a weapon commonly fielded if not always fielded by Tau commanders in 40K - establishing player trend in franchise.

3) It allows the E:A DF to support the 30cm range FW instead of having to get into a rediculous range which is not the role of the DF at all. Its supposed to add covering fire and support the infantry. With 30cm no LOS requirement guns and a No LOS required Seeker, it will do just that. Establishing a role type in E:A that is as expected of the unit.

4) Its balanced addition to the unit whoich could easily be point adjusted *IF* actually even needed. Establishing a balance of rule as a guiding and most important factor.

5) Its an slight uptick to a unit (DF) that is currently lacking any real punch / value in E:A currently. Establishing value to a unit currently underperforming in test results, further balancing factor.

6) It also aligns with core design current background and in game options. Establishes consistency between games within the franchise.

7) Every active Tau player here is asking for it. Not a reason to do it. Not a reason for nay-sayers to change their mind. It is a reason for the champion to listen & gain an understanding / position on the topic.

Cheers,

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