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Broadsides

Lion in the Stars

Post subject: Broadsides

Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 3:34 am

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Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 11:01 pm
Posts: 1455

A Broadside model in 40k is a Crisis suit kit with 8 extra metal pieces: 2 new feet, 2 pieces that cover the jet pack nozzles with a powersupply stack, 2 arms with Smart Missiles built-in, and 2 Railguns. According to IA3, a Broadside is the same size, but half again heavier. Broadsides are NOT bigger than a Crisis suit.

I've already shown that a unit of 3 broadsides +2 shield drones is just as tough to kill as a unit of 5 Terminators.

If we do shift Broadsides to a LV, let's do it right:
LV, 15cm, 4+sv, 6+cc, 5+ff
EITHER Twinlinked Railguns: 75cm AT2+
Twinlinked Plasma: 30cm AP4+
OR Twinlinked Railguns: 75cm AT2+
Smart Missile System: 30cm AP5+ Ignore Cover
Notes: Walker, Reinforced Armor
NOTE: Broadside battlesuits are armed with either a twinlinked plasma OR a Smart Missile System, not both.

They would be deployed in a unit of 6, with an upgrade of 3 more, and one Broadside stand takes up one transport space, not two (this brings them roughly in line with 40k unit transport rules). Of course, this makes Broadside units less than half the number of models they used to be.

The either/or option is because FW has 2 different Broadside models for WYSIWYG. (Then again, FW makes a lot of models that we don't use in E:A, and doesn't make a few that we need). The other option is to add 'Collector's Model' stats for Broadsides with Plasma. I prefer the either/or option myself.

Until the Advanced Stabilization System was available, I preferentially armed my broadside suits with Plasma Rifles. The Broadsides either stood still and fired railguns, or had been forced to move and fired the plasma rifles at whatever forced them to move. Now, my ESWAT list has one Broadside with plasma rifles, and two Broadsides with SMS (SMS are nasty in cities), and my desert list is split 50/50 between plasmas and SMS.

Also, one Broadside + 2 shield drones (my suggested basing for 'LV' status, as well as my usual deployment for 40k), is tougher than a Land Raider versus Lascannon fire in 40k. It takes an average of 4 Lascannon hits (7/36 chance of a one-shot kill) to kill a Land Raider, and 5-6 Lascannon hits (3 hits required at a minimum, no chance of a 1-shot kill) to kill a broadside base (Broadside + 2 Shield Drones).

4+RA is justified, Broadsides are tougher than Termies to kill (INF; 4+RA, TRA), and tougher than a Land Raider, Leman Russ, or Monolith (AV; 4+RA). Any questions?

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T0nkaTruckDriver

Post subject: Broadsides

Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 4:50 pm

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Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2006 6:30 pm
Posts: 22
Location: Ann Arbor, MI

(Hena @ Aug. 26 2006,13:11)

QUOTE

Also one might make a special rule addition to say that the drones don't prevent garrison if added to otherwise garrisonable unit?

I think this is a great idea.

I also think the exception should apply to Teleport as well. Stealths should be able to buy Gun Drones and still Teleport. Both of these exceptions would be much more in keeping with the way things are played in 40k.

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CyberShadow

Post subject: Broadsides

Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 5:21 pm

Swarm Tyrant

Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 6:22 pm
Posts: 9348
Location: Singapore

OK. Let me try this one more time, from the top...

Broadside
Light Vehicle, Move: 15cm, Save: 4+, CC: 6+, FF: 5+

Twin-linked Railguns: 75cm AT2+
Smart Missile System: 30cm AP5+ Ignore Cover

Notes: Walker. Reinforced Armour

Notes

Armour. We are currently considering 4+RA, 5+RA or 3+. I have put them as 4+ with Reinforced Armour, but this is not set yet. However, the Boardside does assume Drone support. Any Broadside can have the Drone Controllers... of course, getting the actual Drones may not b eso easy!

Garrison. I agree that it is a shame to lose the ability to garrison Broadsides, and not worth the extra 5cm movement (and there is no real reason for it). Therefore, the move has been brought back to 15cm. We could allow Drones to be ignored for garrison (and teleport) rules, but it adds more text and more special cases to this unit.

I dont think that allowing a weapon choice for these guys is such a good idea. They are small infantry, and trying to remember which is armed with what gets complicated.

Transport. While I could consider each Broadside taking up a single transport slot, my instinct is that they should take up two (those guns may not add more height, but they do make standing in a confined space more difficult!).

Unit of four. Since it can be increased by two more units, this gives the Tau player the choice of a larger ground unit, or a smaller, air dropped one.
So, how many points? 300 for the four units does seem high. Perhaps 250 would suit better?

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: Broadsides

Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 7:50 pm

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Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire

I dont think that allowing a weapon choice for these guys is such a good idea. They are small infantry, and trying to remember which is armed with what gets complicated.

Who needs to remember, aren't they WYSIWYG?

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Lion in the Stars

Post subject: Broadsides

Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 5:49 am

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Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 11:01 pm
Posts: 1455

Hena: Tau Empire Codex allows the option. A drone controller is available both as a support system (taking up a hardpoint) and as a hardwired system (available to Team Leaders only). Granted, I have other preferences for the Support hardpoint on a Broadside, but I also field Broadsides singly in 40k. Each Broadside I field is a Shas'vre, with access to the armory (for hardwired wargear items like blacksun filters, multitrackers, and drone controllers), with either the Advanced Stabilization System or a Targeting Array on the hardpoint. I could also take a Broadside with a shield generator, and give the Team Leader a drone controller with two more shield drones.

Why should something that has a 83% (5/6) chance of ignoring a hit from an antitank missile without using a shield generator or drone not have 4+RA? With 1 Shield drone, a Broadside is going to ignore 35 of 36 missile or battlecannon shots. With two, that number goes up to 215 of 216. That sounds like it's just about invulnerable to AT missile fire. Against Lascannons it's nowhere near as tough (1/6 chance of surviving without a shield generator or drone, 1/12 with one shield, 1/24 with two shields. Raise that to 1/48 with a shield generator and two shield drones, which is a legal possibility), but it's still dang tough to kill.

CS: A single broadside takes up as much space in an Orca or Manta as 8 Fire Warriors (Source: IA3), making them twice the size (mass/bulk) of Crisis suits. With Broadsides based singly, compared to 2-3 Crisis suits per base, each stand should take up the same amount of space.

Half of the Broadside suits available from FW are armed with Plasma Rifles (the ones with the long, skinny arms), the other half are armed with SMS (Short, boxy arms). I don't like making half the Broadsides either unusable due to WYSIWYG rules, or having to remember that they aren't armed as shown. All my armies are WYSIWYG in 40k, WARMACHINE, Hordes, and Flames of War (never mind the other, smaller games I've been known to play), and I can identify most weapons by shape alone, even in Epic scale. I'd bet that most of the folks that play Tau in 40k can do the same.

****************

Why don't we add the 'does not prevent Garrisoning if attached to a formation that would otherwise be allowed to Garrison' rule to the Gun Drones? They already have a special rule attached to them for being able to take AT hits if there's an AV in the formation.

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baronpiero

Post subject: Broadsides

Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 4:08 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 1:38 pm
Posts: 186

CS,

I think the current broadside team is quite balanced at 300 points, but doesn't play like it should. Indeed, 4 teams of them deliver 8xAT2+ shots, which is by all means formidable for that cost. However they're a bit expensive with very few units, meaning they collapse rapidly under blast markers. In fact, BS are so expensive that they lack the staying power you would expect for the unit. And I like your (and Ilushia's) proposal because it seems to solve that.

Broadside
Light Vehicle, Move: 15cm, Save: 4+, CC: 6+, FF: 5+

Twin-linked Railguns: 75cm AT2+
Smart Missile System: 30cm AP5+ Ignore Cover

Notes: Walker. Reinforced Armour

I see a lot of benefits to this "Monat" broadside as compared to the current one if correctly costed. Trading hitting power for a price discount, means:

- same armor and cheaper induces more staying power, something that lacks.
- defensive weapons grew stronger comparatively, and are now correctly represented for one suit (as opposed to the weird 1xplasma-rifle for two suits in the current stats).

About your questions...

Cost:

I would expect the proposed broadside to be cheaper than a hammerhead gunship.

Hammerhead pros:
+ HH 30cm move and skimmer
+ HH rougthly has twice AP
+ HH as equal AT, sometimes greater if sustain-firing /using ML

Broadside pros:
+ BS has reinforced armour
Broadside cons:
- BS is affected by AP fire

I'd expect the proposed broadside to cost 50 pts per unit, so:
- 200 pts for the basic contingent of 4 units
- may add 2 units for +100 pts

Armor save:

Assuming we represent a single broadside with 2 shield drones, I think the 4+ reinforced armour value represents them correctly and renders the 'rock hard' feeling the unit should have rather well.

Transport space:

I'd suggest to keep transport options for broadsides as it is now, meaning 1 broadside unit takes up 2 spaces in a transport, otherwise there's a risk to find the team of 6 broadsides more appealing to fill an orca, as compared to a team of only 4 crisis suits.

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Tactica

Post subject: Broadsides

Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 5:28 pm

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Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am
Posts: 2241

Hena,

Tau codex, all broadsides and crisis suits may take two weapons and 1 suit upgrade. Drone Controller could be that upgrade which then allows them two drones. The sergent of the unit in question may have multiple upgrades... so he might have drone controller plus multitracker plus targetting array.

Its very comon to see more than 2 shield drones with broadside units.

BTW: even if they only took 2 as you proposed, it would still be 8 wounds to the unit 2x3 + 2. All would have 2+ save and the shield drones have a 4+ invulnerable as well.

+ + +

CS & Baronp,

I could be persuaded to test them as LV's Under the most recent proposed by Baronp using CS's suggestion.

Paying less than a HH for a single suit is probably an acceptable place to start. In perspective, a tricked out hammerhead is a about 2x the cost of a single braodside.

CS - if you are going to remain firm with LV for this formation, I'd like to know so I can rebase all of my broadsides to one per base as the main book requires.

Cheers,

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: Broadsides

Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 7:21 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire

Half of the Broadside suits available from FW are armed with Plasma Rifles (the ones with the long, skinny arms), the other half are armed with SMS (Short, boxy arms).

Aye, I did think they were WYSIWYG. Quite clearly so too, at least as identifiable as land speeder variants for Marines.

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Tactica

Post subject: Broadsides

Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 7:25 pm

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Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am
Posts: 2241

CS,

As soon as you make abstractions (rather necessary or not), you have to continue to do it to maintain some kind of balance between what are normally the same elements.

+ + +

A crisis INFANTRY unit in E:A represents 2-3 crisis and 2-6 drones infantry on an infantry base, a broadside INFANTRY unit would do the same on the same size base.

Both would take up the relative same amount of space on an orca or manta transport bay.

Core design supports this.

+ + +

HOWEVER, if you abstract Broadsides to LIGHT VEHICLES, they are now much less to a base. As LIGHT VEHICLES and the proposed 1 shot each per base instead of two, you are reducing their firepower in half.

+ + +

They are also now 1 BS to a stand with 0-2 drones at best. They are no longer INFANTRY with 2-3 BS + 2-6 drones.

I think it would be absurd to maintain that an LIGHT VEHICLE BS takes up as much space as an INFANTRY unit of CRISIS in E:A.

+ + +

If your justification for not giving BS a weapon option of Plasma Rifles and SMS is because "they are small infantry" - then why are you making them LIGHT VEHICLES?

LIGHT VEHICLES are 1 to a base and may have different armorments as has been established in the Imperial lists already. See Sentinels and Land speeders in the various lists for reference.

+ + +

Allowing the drones to "act as what they are a part of" would simply be learning from what Core Designers have already learned. Its what we partially adopt already.

In core design,

1... drones with stealths benefit from the stealth field, have the same armor save (3+), and move at the same rate, count as jump infantry, have the same toughness (3), may deep strike with them, etc.

2... drones with broadsides have the same armor save (2+), move at the same rate (6" or as difficult terrain if they have ASS), count as simply infantry (not jump infantry), have the same toughness (4), may not deep strike, etc.

3... drones with FW have the same armor save (4+), move at the same rate (6"), have the same toughness (3), may not deep strike and do not count as jump infantry.

4... drones with Crisis suits have the same armor save (3+), move at the same rate (6"), may use the evasion move in the assault phase (6"), count as jump infantry, may deep strike, have the same toughness (4).

So - the point here is that in E:A, allowing the drones to teleport with the Stealths or garrison with the broadsides would be approapriate and is supported in core design.

In so doing, it also solves a problem that we have where Broadsides really should be able to garrison with drones and Stealths should be able to take drones with them when they teleport. It would give these units the added durability they need performing the roles they are supposed to carry out.

I am in support of allowing drones to "act like" the unit types they support in all regards as they do in background and in core design to not only align with background and core design, but to fix these units other two unit problems I've personally encountered with their durability in E:A for the points being asked to pay.

Cheers,

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Lion in the Stars

Post subject: Broadsides

Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 9:35 pm

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Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 11:01 pm
Posts: 1455

Allowing the drones to "act as what they are a part of" would simply be learning from what Core Designers have already learned. Its what we partially adopt already.

I agree with Tactica, even if he isn't quite accurate. There are several kinds of drones, and only the Shield Drone gains the 'Close Protection' rule, which gives them the same toughness and armor save as their controlling model. However, Shield, Marker, and Gun Drones are the same movement type as their controller, Sniper Drones are simple Infantry, and Gun Drones operating independently are Jump Infantry with Jet Packs. Except for that detail, everything else Tactica has said is correct. It makes sense to follow the lead of 40k here.

I think we should add the following line to the Tau Drones special rule:
Drone upgrades do not restrict any special deployment rules that their Cadre or Mission Group are otherwise capable of using. For example, a Gun Drone upgrade taken by a Stealth Suit Mission Group does not restrict the combined formation of Stealth Suits and Gun Drones from Teleporting, and a Gun Drone upgrade taken by a Broadside Mission Group does not prevent the combined formation of Broadsides and Gun Drones from being deployed in Garrison.
What do you think?

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Tactica

Post subject: Broadsides

Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 10:43 pm

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Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am
Posts: 2241

Lion, I was speaking in general on drones. Perhaps I should have been more specific on each drone type and how it would work with each unit, but I thought that might get tedious and a bit irrelivent for the scale.

Sorry if I was misleading at all, I think we agree in the context of the change at hand though... allow drones to perform as the unit they accompany.

Moreover, make BS infantry, and you don't need an LV component to drones at all. they don't need to protect vehciles at all at that point and we can have a net downtick in the options as drones wouldn't be taken with vehicles then (which makes no sense).

Then, they just do what they are... they are infantry... just like the drones... drones can protect infantry, just like they do in core design, then you don't need to make special orca clarificationsfor LV BS vs. Infantry Crisis... everything gets...well, simpler and aligns with core desing and fluff - heh, go figure.

Cheers,

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Dobbsy

Post subject: Broadsides

Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 11:47 pm

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Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:24 am
Posts: 4499
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Why not increase them to 6 in the formation if you are going to cut the firepower by half and keep them LV? They need the boost in numbers if you keep them vulnerable to every shooting attack and cut their firepower. This is the main reason I don't buy them - too fragile and too expensive because of it. Screw the AP attack. Boost their numbers.

E:A is not just numbers and calculations. Given the variation across armies in E:A and 40K for that matter, sometimes things just need more than the "it will hit 83% of the time it's value should be thus... blah blah blah" development line. Sometimes things need an ABSTRACT idea thrown in to keep things right and make them function in more balanced way.

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: Broadsides

Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 11:55 pm

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Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire

I'm afraid I still don't see the justification of LV status.

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sampy

Post subject: Broadsides

Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 10:29 am

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Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2006 11:59 am
Posts: 29

Is there ANY reason why I should buy overcosted lightvehicles that shoot half of what they did before, if I can buy effective HH cadre instead? Well, opponents face always gets serious when they look my HH?s moving towards their lines....

If we have to exept that "keeping BS?s in LV-status with reducing firepower in half" without notably reducing their point cost, only face that get?s serious if I would use BS is my own....

Well, in sarcastic way of thinking, after those reductions BS will not be so much threat for the enemy anymore...so they probably won?t get under fire any more...

Like Dobbsy said, when only talking about propabilities in E:A, it starts to sound too steril and smooth. There SHOULD BE some unbalanced parts in every army, and those army basic characteristics and "way of doing that bloody war" should be first priority when developing new troops or new stats for older. So in this case, if the changes starts to feel too "unTauish", they should not be made at all.

Is there any showing that dropping that LV status would make BS unbalanced?

Because for my opinion, they are now "one use" unit totally. U can use them, yes. With some effect? Maybe. BUT, after they have been dropped from orca (maybe only effective way to use them), they maybe shoot once, end then they are wiped out. Or left in the field with heavy losses and supressed.

What?s wrong in that picture?

From a aspect of Shas`O, I?ll tell you. We, Tau, do not know terms collateral damage or spendable troops or cannon fodder. We simply don?t.

Some player are using BS in suicide missions. From a Tau supreme commanders aspect, that?s just impossible way to act. BS and crisis suits are the veterans of our army, and the commander should just throw them to their death? Come on...

The E:A is so fun because every army has it?s own "feeling". And every army is also telling a little bit of that person who plays it. And so it should be.

From Tau commanders aspect, I should deal my problems in Tau way, even sometimes lose a games to save my troops. Yes, sounds maybe stupid but thats the way I?m using my troops. Well, haven?t lost a game yet...

But if there is some unbalance in between the armies, like there always will be when using different kind of game tables wth different kind of terrains. Or even smaller army agaist larger one. The some kind of balance should be then fould between those players, not armies.

Tau player should feel that hes playing for the greater good, and marine players should get some good glorious last stands with no possibility to destroy them from distance...and so on... Because ofcource every army is trying to make battle in their way, and fight where they wan?t to do it.

Sorry about the yelling....

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