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Alien Auxiliaries - Kroot Formations & Field Craft

Tactica

Post subject: Alien Auxiliaries - Kroot Formations & Field Craft

Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 4:43 am

Brood Brother

Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am
Posts: 2241

I'm asking for help here guys. The Alien Auiliaries section of the Tau list is lack luster and not really formations the masses consider valuable. So...

Will the new field craft do enough to fix the Kroot formation? If not, how do we fix the Kroot?

Kroot in general
The 'typical' consensus is that the kroot don't work in v4.1...

From memory, we kicked around giving all of them scout (probably too powerful), giving them all guns (to uncharacteristic), giving them all armor (too uncharacteristic), giving them teleport (mixed feelings on this one but never fully explored) and ultimately settled on a cover save bonus. Ergo, my creation of "Field Craft" Tau Special rule.

Field Craft
I took the liberty to create the Field Craft rule to try the previously agreed upon 'cover save bonus' for kroot to see if it helped them become more appealing to the Tau community in general and more valuable to the army as a whole for their points. Again, this solution was by popular opinion the last go around (before the epicomms boards got hosed). In creating Field Craft, I pulled the concept and all the flavor text straight from the Tau Codex! The bonus they now recieve is in effect the one they receive in 40K. Their is no 'move through cover' bonus in Epic for infantry and a simple +1 to cover is pretty easy comprimise to work with.

Reasoning we (the Tau community) went with this solution as I recall
The Kroot formation really dies in troves in combat, but they do fight better than Tau do. So to Tau, the Kroot's 'combat prowess' is something to behold and has some merit if it can be used in our list - even if only sacraficial and counter measure oriented at best. The question is - do the Kroot afford us some utility to be worth their points?

Worse than becoming sacrificial in combat, the Kroot have historically had trouble making it to combat as they have absolutely no armour save. They also have no transport (like IG) to get them to combat fast. Furthermore, with no significant guns, they are of no threat at range. So if the formation can't move fast, gets shot to bits when it tries to move, can't really assault, and cannot shoot - the formation is basically not working to say the least in v4.1. We've (the development public) struggled to do the kroot some justice since their inception.

So, what do you think of the new Field Craft Tau Special rule? With Field Craft now in the list, is there now a role for the kroot in your force?

If Field Craft is not going to fix the Kroot, should it stay in?

If Field Craft is not going to fix the Kroot, do we have other suggestions?

Please give the Kroot some playtesting and report on your thoughts of this formation. Field Craft cover enhancement won't allow them to move out and engage the enemy any better, that's for sure... but it may afford them a way to last longer and make the enemy come for them (lure). This factors into the Patient Hunter way of the Tau. I don't think their's anything reasonable for us to do to make them part of Killing Blow... that's more an area for the tanks and suits.

As they generally have no armor, Ignore Cover weapons are still going to be just as effective on them of course. We all know what happens to IG (no armor infantry) when they meet our Stingrays (ignore cover weapons). :80:

Personally, I wasn't a big fan of the Field Craft rule solution from agest past. However, I don't know what else to do for them to make them of value that most will agree on either. The rule is definitely in context with what Kroot do on the 41st millenium field of combat and seems better than actually giving them an armor save - which seems way out of character to me.

Final thought on Kroot...

If the existing kroot mob type formation isn't working - even with Field Craft, would it work if we split the mob type formation up into seperate formations anywhere? Example kroot, krootox, and hounds could remain one formaton - but great knarlocs could become their own formation... obviously you would have to take a mob of kroot before you could take anything like Knarloc Riders are Great Knarloc formations - if they existed... but, would this help in any way? If so, how?

So please, weigh in with thoughts...

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CyberShadow

Post subject: Alien Auxiliaries - Kroot Formations & Field Craft

Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 2:50 pm

Swarm Tyrant

Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 6:22 pm
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Location: Singapore

Just to throw a random thought out... you could go the route of the Lictor, and give them teleport. This would make them more guerila troops, teleporting close to the enemy, slowing them down and getting into assault. They could remain relatively 'one shot' and specialist... but as a delaying unit they could be valuable.

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Honda

Post subject: Alien Auxiliaries - Kroot Formations & Field Craft

Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 3:03 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:44 pm
Posts: 1891
Location: Katy, Republic of Texas

Ok, I'll jump in on this one and get it kicked off.

My thoughts:

1. I think people are expecting Kroot to behave too closely in Epic as they do in 40K. In many cases we see them as "offensive" weapons and because they don't have any real values to support Tau initiatives we think they are broke.

I would offer up for consideration, that we are using them wrong or expecting more out of them than we should.

Fluff: If you read about how the Kroot were used in the Taros campaign, the Tau "seeded" them in areas where their presence caused trouble for the Imperial forces:

Example #1: Phyrlla Heights (sp?) - Heavy terrain feature that was found to be full of Kroot. The IG forces had to break off from their main drive to deal with this threat. The IG forces bombarded and assaulted the Kroot, but the heavy terrain kept the Kroot effective and their HtH capabilities prevented the IG from removing the Kroot.

Example #2: Water Processing Station 23-30 - When the Elysian Drop Troops landed in the complex they discovered that not only were there some Human Auxila defending, but also a substantial number of Kroot. Once again, the heavy terrain and the Kroot HtH capabilities made this a nasty proposition for the IG forces.

So given those two examples and the fact that Epic is not 40K, I think we should consider the following proposal:

1. Kroot should not have any "exceptional" offensive capabilities. At the scale we are dealing with, the Kroot just don't have a lot to offer when it comes to supporting Mechanized warfare. That shouldn't be a problem.

2. Providing a + cover save (i.e. Fieldcraft), while in terrain aligns with the fluff usage at this scale and give them a role as:

3. Exceptional garrison troops. In each of the examples listed above, the Kroot were "seeded" in dominant terrain to impede or prevent the loss of said terrain.

4. So, perhaps what we need for them to be more effective, is a reduction in cost, get a cover save, and generally be a pain in the neck to anyone who is attempting to take objectives on our side of the board.

So...thoughts?

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Honda

"Remember Taros? We do"

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

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nealhunt

Post subject: Alien Auxiliaries - Kroot Formations & Field Craft

Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 4:26 pm

Purestrain

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA

Stick the fluff about their use of camo, cover, etc. in the unit description and boost their save to reflect their stealth abilities. Simple. No special rules. It's the exact thing that was done with other stealth troops like Eldar Rangers and Tyranid Lictors.

If they absolutely must have a special ability, make it something specifically for the GT scenario rather than an overall new rule, like the Eldar "can't garrison" rule. Something that might be appropriate would be a special GT deployment rule, e.g. Kroot garrisons do not have to deploy in advance with other garrisons and may instead be deployed at any time.

Basically, limit the special rules.

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Tactica

Post subject: Alien Auxiliaries - Kroot Formations & Field Craft

Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 5:37 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am
Posts: 2241

CS, NH, and Honda,

Thanks for commenting thus far - I really appreciate it! OK, to summarize - what I've heard... err... read was:

1) Make the kroot teleport
- encourages shock troop (a forward lines troop)
- may make them sacrificial
- would give them a 'trick' sneak attack value
- adds teleport to the list - which is something we lack

2) Field craft (or other use of cover), and/or make them cheaper
- works to define a 'better' garrison force
- aligns with the Tau codex & FW:IA3:TC fluff
- lowers expectation of formation
- lowered cost increases value per unit

3) Give them an armor save, remove field craft, allow them to garrison at any time, not just initially or some other pseudo bonus
- encourages mobility out of cover
- alternate deployment may work as a 'trick' value

Hopefully I've accurately summarized your thoughts. Just trying to make sure I'm understanding the proposed. If not, let me know and I'll edit this post.

From a pure 'value' to the Tau WIP v4.2 list which would encourage the Kroot foramtion's use perspective, I think idea 1) would win hands down as it takes the Kroot from a Patient Hunter role to a Killing Blow role. Although teleport is valuable - I don't know if _this formation_ is the one that should get Teleport in our list. I'm also concerned that it makes these guys very un-fluffy as I really think their role is Patient Hunter from fluff. Basically, this may be too good of a value and not enough of a stylistic adoption. A very interesting idea though, I have to admit.

From an alignment of fluff, I think option 2) wins hands down. The formation is rather disposable as it is and is clearly not worth its value today. Instead of adding value to justify the points, this works to lower the cost to meet the game value. This is an approach I'm typically apprehensive about. In this case, I don't want to develop a flood embrace of a cheap formation and create a horde army of kroot. However, perhaps the Alien Auxilia prerequisite rules and lack of staying power from these formations already work to avoid any such potential. So, considering their very lack luster feel now and the rather limited offensive punch they offer with no armor and almost no guns - a modest reduction in cost may be worth entertaining. I do like the idea of keeping Field Craft for the formation as it makes them very fluffy and emphasizes their intended impact on the game - hunker down, hold an area, be patient. I think this idea encourages the right kind of use in the game. The questions are 1) Is the Field Craft rule justified and does it work? Is there a problem with adding a special rule to our list - as NH has suggested? 2) What kind of points reduction are we talking about for this formation - what is the 'just right' number if Field Craft remains? If questions can be satisfactorily answered and addressed, Personally, I think this will be my most favored solution for the Kroot formation.

From a simplistic and ease of adoption approach, suggestion 3) would clearly win IMHO. This is probably the second most valuable rule change as it makes the kroot have some staying power and would make them better in combat situations. It would also allow them to gain some mobility and get to combat (though no transport, so they aren't going anywhere terribly fast). On the other hand, this is the least stylistic suggestion. Kroot don't really have armor. They also typically get into a good cover area and fire on the enemy from ranges where they enemy cannot even see them. Thus drawing the enemy to their position typically (i.e. patient hunter). Although probably more valuable to the list than suggestion 2) This suggestion will encourage non-traditional play and gives the least 'kroot' feeling to the foramtion. In the end, I think this is my least favored suggestion.

Thoughts gentlemen?

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nealhunt

Post subject: Alien Auxiliaries - Kroot Formations & Field Craft

Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 6:32 pm

Purestrain

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA

The deployment idea was just a spitballing example. There could be plenty of other similar mechanics and I'd like to see some detailed consideration of various options.

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Honda

Post subject: Alien Auxiliaries - Kroot Formations & Field Craft

Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 6:59 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:44 pm
Posts: 1891
Location: Katy, Republic of Texas

First off, I'm not married to Fieldcraft, it was just a suggestion.

However, we do need to think about what the unit is intended to do, i.e. what is it's role? Not only that, but what is it's role within the Epic context?

Q1: Let's face it, Kroot are light infantry. We can fiddle all we want to make them something different, but they are what they are.

Possible Roles: Scouts, Garrison (especially if boosted with Krootox, Great Knarlocs, etc.)

Historically, light infantry have limited value and only become somewhat sustainable in heavy terrain.

Q2: What are Kroot capable of within the context of Epic?

Again, Possible Roles: Scouts, Garrison

To put this another way, lets say that a group of Zulu warriors (or Apache Indians, if you want to take the Knarloc riders route) are married up with an American Armored Cav force.

What are they really going to be able to do in support of a mechanized thrust?

A different perspective. 100 Years War English (longbow, few knights) married up with Zulu warriors. How are they going to support the overall effort?

The way I see it, there's only so much they can do, so make them effective by enhancing what they are capable of doing.

My two yen...

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Honda

"Remember Taros? We do"

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

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Tactica

Post subject: Alien Auxiliaries - Kroot Formations & Field Craft

Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 8:23 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am
Posts: 2241

Considering Kroot, I think we should stick to franchise tradition where possible.

From a gamy perspective alone, scout will become problematic for a formation this big - I think we kicked this around in a past life and NH as well as others had some serious and valid concerns about giving a formation this size - all scout ability. So scouting as a whole for the formation is pretty much out. The only scouts in the foramation today are the hounds - FYI.

So that takes us back to Garrison and limited combat roles, dug in predators and terrain based ambushes. They seem to fit this role very well in franchise tradition and seems like something we can impliment into E:A with ease.

So in effort to exploit this role, should they have a cover advantage or is armor the better way to go? In other words - should Field craft stay, or should we give them armor? Which one encourages the way they should be used? Which one suits them best in fluff?

Personally, I don't know how Field Craft will or will not work for the formation. I'd like to give it a go and see if it pans out. If there's significant opposition, that's fine too. We'll scrap field craft - but I think we need to get a solution to playtest this go around... or we'll be doing this again in v4.3 and up against the wall on time.

Please wiegh in folks. What to do with the Kroot.

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Rob

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Tactica

Post subject: Alien Auxiliaries - Kroot Formations & Field Craft

Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 5:05 am

Brood Brother

Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am
Posts: 2241

HecklerMD had this to say regarding Kroot and Field Craft, any comments?

What this is saying to me is that they are fast, like Space Marines, but unlike SMs they are not hauling around powered armor. I say we speed them up some, give the Shapers, Carnivore Squad, and Hound Packs 20 CM speed (Up +5 from 15) and let them keep infiltrate, and give them Scout so they can still be garrisoned. Based on IA3, these abilities are not beyond them, and may allow them to be more useful. But lets not create more special rules.

Thoughts?

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Justiniel

Post subject: Alien Auxiliaries - Kroot Formations & Field Craft

Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 10:33 am

Brood Brother

Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2004 8:59 am
Posts: 3280
Location: Holywood, Northern Ireland

Hiya, I don't play Tau but I thought I'd weigh in with my thoughts anyway

I'm with NH on this one, an armour save is simplest and seems to work, fluff wise it just needs wording in such a way as to suggest that they don't actually wear armour it is simply that they use available rocks, trees, bushes etc AS armour. I think this suits them pretty well.

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Honda

Post subject: Alien Auxiliaries - Kroot Formations & Field Craft

Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 2:50 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:44 pm
Posts: 1891
Location: Katy, Republic of Texas

I'd agree with the up armor save (fluff support, in Krootian, "Nyah, nyah, you hit the tree").

Also to elaborate on what I meant by Scout. I wasn't advocating for the Scout ability, only that light infantry are capable of a few roles, one of which is "scouting" for the main force. Maybe skirmishing might have been a better choice of words.

So, quick fix...up the armor save.

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Honda

"Remember Taros? We do"

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

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Tactica

Post subject: Alien Auxiliaries - Kroot Formations & Field Craft

Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 4:52 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am
Posts: 2241

In the most recent WIP - I eliminated Field Craft special rule by popular demand. So - no more special rule.

I added scout to the Shaper and Carnivore squads and steered away from the armour upgrade due to what the fluff says.

Give it a look and advise gents.

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Rob

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