Having a problem justifying Kroot.. |
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Legion 4
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Post subject: Having a problem justifying Kroot..  Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 3:40 pm |
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I agree with Jaldon about the Scout ability, from what I have seen. It could be important if used correctly. And asaura's point is valid and an easy fix ... a save ... or/plus an In'v save ? 
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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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Tactica
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Post subject: Having a problem justifying Kroot.. Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 5:12 pm |
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So limit the max unit size to less than 24 models and bump up their save or give an invulnerable save?
What's the final?
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Rob
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Legion 4
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Post subject: Having a problem justifying Kroot.. Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 5:12 am |
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Infiltrate, Scout, Sav +5, + In'v ? That's my take ...
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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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Jaldon
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Post subject: Having a problem justifying Kroot.. Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 10:16 am |
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Location: Utah, pick a Pacific Island the other half of the year.
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The Kroot are already Infiltrators, so no need to add it.
Armor 5+ and invulnerable, works and doesn't add any new rules so it gets my vote.
Scout, I dunno, what do they need 'scout' for, as if the Tau Army didn't have enough Scouts in it already.
Well that's my two cents anyways.
I doubt if these changes will improve my skill using the Kroot, but it will improve them for sure. The Kroot and me, well, we just don't get along 
Jaldon 
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Brave sir Robin, when danger reared its ugly head he bravely turned his tail and fled, Brave sir Robin.
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Legion 4
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Post subject: Having a problem justifying Kroot.. Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 3:34 pm |
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Yes, I was reviewing the Tau download yesterday, they already are infiltrators, the Saves, would make them more survivable. And I think Scout would add to the general "feel" as I see the Kroot as a "Predator" type alien. Plus would make them more useful, however the Tau do have a number of Scout units ...
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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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Jaldon
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Post subject: Having a problem justifying Kroot.. Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 11:54 pm |
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I think you misunderstood my question, I do understand it fits the 'feel' of the Kroot (and I even agree), but.....
Making them Scouts
AND
Giving them 5+ Armor
AND
Giving them an Invulnerable Save
May drive the cost up too much to balance them against other formations.
So with all the Scouts the Tau army already has, do they really need more at the expense of higher costing Kroot.
(I'm convinced if Kroot under my command had 3+ RA with an invulnerable save, they would still end up face down in the dead tray by the end of turn three. I have the same problem with Terminators.  )
Jaldon
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Brave sir Robin, when danger reared its ugly head he bravely turned his tail and fled, Brave sir Robin.
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Legion 4
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Post subject: Having a problem justifying Kroot.. Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 4:37 am |
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Well, maybe a few play tests with the Super Kroots (Infil., Sct, +5 Save and In'v) ? With appropriate point cost ? Just a suggestion ? And you may just have bad Karma will Kroot and Terminators, Jaldon !  I have the same "joss" with women, (I'm usually face down in the dead pile, by turn 3 !)
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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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Jaldon
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Post subject: Having a problem justifying Kroot.. Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 11:01 am |
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Location: Utah, pick a Pacific Island the other half of the year.
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Well, having a nice set of wheels, opening doors, knowing how to dance, buying em flowers for no special reason, and being suave.......
has done nothing to improve my Kroot Kindrads performance in battle.
As for the fair sex, I don't think I'd be much help, but I know being real rich gives one a leg up 
Playtest the idea, inc. scout, yes just as long as I am not the one doing the playtesting. That would hardly return a fair assessment. I'll mention it to Roger when I finally get home around the 18th, and let him playtest it so it gets at least a fair shot.
Jaldon
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Brave sir Robin, when danger reared its ugly head he bravely turned his tail and fled, Brave sir Robin.
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baronpiero
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Post subject: Having a problem justifying Kroot.. Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 3:16 pm |
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I gave a go to the Kroot this weekend against an aerospace heavy space marine force in a 5000 pts game. I took 15 of them + 3 krootox.
I deployed the kindred in ruins to protect both a Broadside contingent and a 6-strong HH contingent and it seemed to work as my opponent didn't even try to go after them (thank you 4+ save from ruins).
Later in the game, my opponent did not have any more raiding troops, so I started to play the kindred offensively and ?assaulted a nearby scout formation. I inflicted 1 more casualty, was twice more numerous but ended up losing by 1 point due to a bad dice roll  ?(2 vs 6). No doubt these scouts were xeno-hunters.
Just ?some thought to share about the changes in this thread:
- giving carnivores the scout ability would be useful to further improve the protective capabilities of the kindred. It would make it more easy to protect other Tau formations from assaults.
- 5+ save would help solve problems offensively but is just impossible an option for it represents carapace armor. We can expect 6+ save to represent various gifted equipment and/or natural toughness, but not much.
Rather than that, I tought maybe we could add a special rule for kroots to help them on the attack, like the following for instance.
Predatory fighters: Kroot have a natural sense of fieldcraft and their ancestral training can raise these hunting skills to unequalled degrees. As a result, kroot can still take cover saves when attacking as part of an assault.
This would give the kroot a boost offensively by making them good at attacking entrenched infantry. It would therefore make them more complementary from other tau units, making them useful in situations where Tau would normally struggle.
I know JG does not want to add unnecessary new special rules, but in this case it would make a difference for sure and would ?further help to define kroot as lurking predators. Just for that, having a special rule of their own is affordable IMO.
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Legion 4
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Post subject: Having a problem justifying Kroot.. Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 5:08 pm |
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nealhunt
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Post subject: Having a problem justifying Kroot.. Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 3:56 pm |
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Location: Nashville, TN, USA
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What about just giving Kroot a "may always garrison" rule in the GT/Army list section? This could represent the infiltration portion of the scout ability (not to be confused with Infiltrate special ability), while not giving them the ZoC that some people seem to think will be problematic.
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Neal
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Tactica
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Post subject: Having a problem justifying Kroot.. Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 6:47 pm |
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NH,
In epic,
1) Kroot are our only combat source, but can't stay alive long enought to get there.
2) if we want massed infantry for the FF support, we can go with auxillary and get a more effective formation.
3) kroot don't shoot, so they need some other value on the field.
In 40K, they have a move through cover ability easier than normal infantry, they have a fire further through terrain further than normal infantry while not being able to be seen, and they have a forward deployment ability that normal infantry don't get - all of this is lost in epic.
Scout at least gives them a new advantage we hadn't considered. They really need a bonus to cover to mimic what they get in 40K, and an AP shot would help.
I don't think allowing a unit that can't fire and is typically shot to peices - just to garrison will solve any problems.
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Rob
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nealhunt
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Post subject: Having a problem justifying Kroot.. Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 6:49 pm |
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Okay.
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Neal
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penal battalion
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Post subject: Having a problem justifying Kroot.. Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 7:13 pm |
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Agreed. The kroot need to be able to terrain hug their way to the enemy, strike and then scatter to reform elsewere. The ability to do this a number of times would throw the enemy off ballance. Rarly would they deliver a decicive strike, but they would hound units and pull in resources way beyond their worth.
Now all we need to do is work out how to do that in epic 
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Tactica
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Post subject: Having a problem justifying Kroot.. Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 4:22 pm |
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So the consensus sounds like 'scout' and +1 to cover save for all kroot - there wasn't a whole heck of a lot of comment on infiltrate ability, though it makes sense, even if it won't get used much...
So, will 'scount', 'infiltrate', and +1 to their cover saves special rule do them justice enough to be tried in armies?
Lots of good discussion, but I'd like to see this one funnel to a resolve - like the crisis/broadside LV thread. That way JG can see we made some progress in his absense.
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Rob
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Yes ?