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War Engines split fire
Hojyn
 Post subject: War Engines split fire
PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 2:09 pm 
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Hi,

I was thinking about the Imperator and how to make it viable in Epic, and I had this idea. It's a slight modification of a rule I suggested way back when, changed in ordre to be compatible to ALL War Engines.

Note that this rule is based on the assumption that all War Engines' profiles have been modified to include "weapon systems". This would be relatively easy to do. For example, a Reaver would have 3 : left arm, right arm and carapace; a Shadowsword would have 2: Volcano cannon and "secondary weapons"; etc.

Special rule -

Some War Engines are so huge that they are crewed by a vast number of servants, etc. and have several weapon systems which allow the Titan to fire at several targets at once. The following special rule apply to all War Engines:
Instead of firing all of its weapons at once, a War Engine fires each of its weapon systems consecutively. Hit allocation, damage and (if necessary) withdrawal moves are resolved immediately after each system fires. Each weapons system must fire on the same target formation, unless said formation has been broken by the previous weapons system round of shooting. In this case, the War Engine may elect to shoot at another formation or continue its shooting on the same target.

Well, this could probably be a lot clearer if written well, but I'd like to know what you think about this idea. Are there any problems I didn't see?
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Ilushia
 Post subject: War Engines split fire
PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 11:29 pm 
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This would also slow the game down alot in some cases. Especially when facing things with Reinforced Armor. Rolling in clusters of 4-6 shots each then resolving saves then moving on would slow it down quite a bit I'd expect. It's not really that necessary either, until you reach the Imperator most of the titans are unlikely to wipe out an entire formation in a single turn unless it's a small or flimsy formation (In which case the question is: Why are you shooting at it with a heavy titan when you could be using some Knights, or Warhounds, or Leman Russ?) and the prospect of breaking several formations with a single heavy battle titan seems like a bad thing to me... I proposed that the Imperator get to split fire if it took a sustained fire action at a -1 penalty to its attack rolls (Negating the sustained fire bonus), since it's got weapons which hit for absurd amounts of damage and putting all of them even into a very big, tough formation is likely overkill. But it's just not necessary, and probably unbalancing, in the case of smaller titans.
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Hojyn
 Post subject: War Engines split fire
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 10:52 am 
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(Hena @ Nov. 10 2007,19:00)
QUOTE
Well it would make those titans with powerful weapons a lot better as they could now break multiple formations in a turn. This paves way to "hero hammer" which I hate, so I gotta be negative here :). Certainly I think that this kind of change to all WEs would heavily detrimental to the game.

Yes, and I agree with you here. Hence my suggestion of breaking down a Titan's weapons into "weapons systems" (ws) : small WE could get only 1 ws  (or 1 long-ranged, 1 short-ranged ws) and only big(ger) WE, i.e. Titans would get multiple, long-ranged weapon systems.

Edit: Also if you have rulebook (the real book, not pdfs), check in the appendixes. There is FAQ & Designers notes and on page 4 of those there is question to Jervis about allowing splitting fire. It has a good reason (B) why it shouldn't be allowed.


I've read it and, while I agree that not allowing split fire makes for a more skillful game, I also think it's strange (and at times, frustrating) to have a Titan shoot TK weapons at infantry targets (and vice versa).

I know the system works fine, but I'm sure there must be a way to tweak it in order to add some depth to the WE without turning the game into "hero-hammer".

@Blarg
2) One of the common traits you see with the "normal" war engines is that they have some heavy weapons and some lighter support weapons: heavy bolters, TL heavy bolters, lascannons, TL lascannons, autocannons, etc.  If these tanks were to operate under real-life conditions and not game mechanic conditions I think it would be obvious that they would use the heavy weapons in an operational manner (fire on the opposing war engines, fire on large infantry or armor formations, etc.) and the lighter support weapons tactically (clear away nearby infantry, LV, and the odd AV).  If you were to declare certain weapons would be able to split their fire onto targets that are within a certain range (30cm?) then you might have a viable suggestion.

Hmm... If we go with the AMTL list, how about allowing Titans to fire their weapons separately based on their category (Scout, Tactical, Assault and Support)?

For example, if a Titan is equipped with both Tactical and Support weapons, all Tactical weapons must be fired at the same formation, but the Support weapons may fire at another.

It would then be a "simple" matter of fitting all existing weapons from other lists into a category (i.e. an Eldar Power Fist would probably be listed as an Assault weapon).

Aaaaah, if only I had an opponent to playtest all my wild ideas !!!  :(  :p

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zombocom
 Post subject: War Engines split fire
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 6:22 pm 
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The main issue I have with this is that you can lay "shot at" blast markers on multiple units, which is multiplying the effectiveness of the weapons.

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Hojyn
 Post subject: War Engines split fire
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 9:51 am 
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(zombocom @ Nov. 13 2007,17:22)
QUOTE
The main issue I have with this is that you can lay "shot at" blast markers on multiple units, which is multiplying the effectiveness of the weapons.

Well, under the current AMTL rules (and with the above optional rule of "one target per weapon category"):

- Scout titans may only receive Scout weapons > max number of targets: 1

- Battle Titans may receive Tactical, Assault and Support weapons > since Assault weapons can't shoot, max number of targets: 2

So, only battle Titans would be able to fire at more than one formation, and only if they are armed with both Tactical AND Support weapons.

If this is deemed too powerful, perhaps add +50 points for taking one or more Support weapon(s)?
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Moscovian
 Post subject: War Engines split fire
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 5:38 pm 
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Hoyjn, I was following this discussion when you first brought it up.  Although I like the idea of some things splitting weapons (such as the Imperator), I think mucking about with all war engines is a bad idea.  It would bog down play considerably.  Epic is all about blast markers which means that any unit that is allowed to do this will have a tremendous advantage over all others.  Their points would all have to be recalculated at a minimum which would be tremendously difficult if you consider how many WEs there are in the core armies alone (sixteen?).  

If we keep it simple and just allow splitting fire with everything over 12DC and point cost those bigguns' appropriately (none of this 1600 points for an Imperator) then the units can be dumped into scenarios or larger games seemlessly.  Splitting fire in a game that size will have much less of an impact as well.

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