Tactical Command
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AMTL list too strong
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=7493		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  -AL [ Fri Sep 22, 2006 2:21 am ]
Post subject:  AMTL list too strong
I have only played 3 games with the AMTL list, and they have all been easy 4th turn VP wins. ?Although I found it hard to get a VC win due to my opponent having more activations than me, they found shifting my Titans off their objectives too tough for them to even hope for a VC win. ?All three felt pleased to just get a VP tie braker in turn 4, as fighting against so many Titans was just to much.

The end result is that I don't look forward to another AMTL game, and I don't think anyone is really looking forward to playing agianst it (though all were good sports and even talked about a rematch sometime). ?They didn't look like they were haveing much fun, and I sure didn't have that "glowing with pride" feeling I got when my Marines won a game. ?My forces did the winning for me, as all I had to do was keep the VCs out of my opponent's reach (which was simply a matter of placing my two Objectives on the half way point and within 30cm, and then parking a non BTS titan between them), and then go for the Victory Points win.

So here are the changes I want to try for my next game:
1) Opponet starts with +1 Victory Condition. {this may be enough on its own}
2) All Titans and Ordinatus yield twice the VPs they otherwise would {so far, I've won on a Turn 4 VP showdown...and its never been close, so this should close the gap a bit}

3) Lancers: 3 for 300, or 5 for 500 {pressently 3 for 250 or 6 for 450...though at 100pts each they may still be too good}
4) Landing Pad: should be an upgrade, for 150 pts and replaces a Carapace Weapon. {the Quake barrage is just too deadly}
5) Ordinatus: only 4 shields, and if destroyed, all AMTL ?forces recieve a permanent -1 to initiative, as such a relic's destruction would truely break their hearts and distort their perceptions with grief. {adds a level of risk to taking such an important WE}

Am I crazy? ?Is this not enough? ?Too far maybe?
I'd like to hear your thoughts...
Author:  thurse [ Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:02 pm ]
Post subject:  AMTL list too strong
Hi,

I may agree with you concerning the lancers, but I've never considered the list really overpowered.

If you know you'll face AMTL in a game, most army lists give you the weapons to kill titans.

The main problem is when you play with "blind list" (tournament-style). You can build a balance army that works very well against most opponents, but the AMTL is so different that a lot of units won't do anything against it.

My 2 cents...
Author:  Bombot [ Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:36 pm ]
Post subject:  AMTL list too strong

(thurse @ Sep. 22 2006,12:02)
QUOTE
The main problem is when you play with "blind list" (tournament-style). You can build a balance army that works very well against most opponents, but the AMTL is so different that a lot of units won't do anything against it.

My 2 cents...

I don't consider that a balanced list then.
Author:  epilgrim [ Fri Sep 22, 2006 2:27 pm ]
Post subject:  AMTL list too strong
the formation that grosses out my regular opponent is the Castellans. 90cm 6 BP Macro on Sustain....OWWWWW!!!!
Author:  nealhunt [ Fri Sep 22, 2006 2:45 pm ]
Post subject:  AMTL list too strong

(epilgrim @ Sep. 22 2006,14:27)
QUOTE
the formation that grosses out my regular opponent is the Castellans. 90cm 6 BP Macro on Sustain....OWWWWW!!!!

...with DC2, void shields, and fearless.

They're just brutally tough - hard to suppress and nearly impossible to outright kill.  The only successes I've had on them is to use clipping assaults to break them.

I actually had a Great Gargant square off against a formation of them and due to some bad die rolls (repeated TK misses) it wasn't until the third turn of Sustained Fire (it was a scenario, not GT) that the Gargant broke them.

That's not to say I think they are broken.  They're just nasty and something to keep an eye on for playtests.
Author:  semajnollissor [ Fri Sep 22, 2006 3:48 pm ]
Post subject:  AMTL list too strong
Based on my limited experience with the list, the biggest problem I have with it is the combination of two quake cannons and a carapace landing pad. That gives the ability to hit anywhere on the table with two MW templates - a bit much considering that this is nearly impossible to suppress or reduce in effectiveness.
Author:  Dwarf Supreme [ Fri Sep 22, 2006 4:04 pm ]
Post subject:  AMTL list too strong
Agreed, that is a nasty combination.
Author:  -AL [ Sat Sep 23, 2006 12:12 am ]
Post subject:  AMTL list too strong
We tend to favour "blind lists" here, even when we know what we're facing.  Most will build their army with either the ability to kill the "not more than 1/3 pts worth of Titans" or with the intend to avoid said Titan.

I haven't tried the Castillians, but they do seem very good for 500pts.

Its funny, but I wasn't sure the Quake Reaver was worth the 650 pts, but now that I've used it, I think its a steel for that price.  Not only is it great for targeting the opposing BTS (no matter where it hides), but its very effective at garding the Blitz too.  I'll try it at 800pts and see what happens.

I haven't played the same opponet twice yet, and I know the local guys are discussing amoungst themselves how best to deal with the list, so my next few games should be telling...
Author:  -AL [ Sat Sep 23, 2006 5:29 am ]
Post subject:  AMTL list too strong
Here is what my local group had to say on the topic:Deep Space (Ottawa)
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Sat Sep 23, 2006 12:45 pm ]
Post subject:  AMTL list too strong

(-AL @ Sep. 23 2006,00:12)
QUOTE
Its funny, but I wasn't sure the Quake Reaver was worth the 650 pts, but now that I've used it, I think its a steel for that price.  Not only is it great for targeting the opposing BTS (no matter where it hides), but its very effective at garding the Blitz too.  I'll try it at 800pts and see what happens.

You may be interested to know that the double-quake carapace-pad Reaver is 730 points under the modular cost list.
Author:  Heretic [ Sat Sep 23, 2006 5:57 pm ]
Post subject:  AMTL list too strong
Since a huge mob of titans would attract some attention on the battlefield might a solution not be for other races to be able to adjust the amount of points they spend on titans from 1/3 to 1/2? If my chaos forces had been allowed to spend half their points on titans it might have been a different story! I guess this might be hard to playtest and of more benefit to some races than others. Great to see so many titans battling it out again though, reminds me of happy Adeptus Titanicus days! :)
Author:  -AL [ Sat Sep 23, 2006 6:06 pm ]
Post subject:  AMTL list too strong
E&C:  I've elected to pass on the modular costs for simplicity's sake for the time being.  I suspect 730 is still too low, but maybe I should just try it at 750.

Heretic:  Our local Chaos player finds his Titans don't fair well when hunted by opposing Titans, as the Chaos Titans are more geared to infantry killing it seems.
Also, the idea is to fine a way for the AMTL to be balanced in the Tournament senario with blind lists.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Mon Sep 25, 2006 12:42 pm ]
Post subject:  AMTL list too strong

(-AL @ Sep. 23 2006,18:06)
QUOTE
E&C:  I've elected to pass on the modular costs for simplicity's sake for the time being.  I suspect 730 is still too low, but maybe I should just try it at 750.

You might be surprised, even small increases in points can lead to significant cutbacks in your list elsewhere.
Author:  nealhunt [ Mon Sep 25, 2006 1:58 pm ]
Post subject:  AMTL list too strong

(Hena @ Sep. 23 2006,21:31)
QUOTE
Any consideration making the fire control tower take the place of support weapon? That would downgrade it significantly with quake cannons.

I argued for that from the time the CPL was introduced.
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