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Imperator Titan

 Post subject: Imperator Titan
PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 11:13 am 
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Hi,

I've just started painting my new AMTL force (Legio Gryphonicus) and since I have an Imperator Titan, I've taken an interest in the rules for this beast.

POINT 1
I've read most of the proposed rules for splitting the Imperator into several WE, and while they are the result of some impressive thinking, to be honest I feel they way too complicated for Epic Armageddon. Their main merit is to avoid creating a special rule for splitting fire, but to me it's a bit like going around the house to enter by the back door when the front door is wide open. In other words, I believe the Imperator is worth its own special rule.

POINT 2
I played with the Imperator back in the days of SM2/TL, and what I remembered was a Titan that could hold its own against a whole army, a huge machine bristling with powerful weapons.
Now, looking at its stats in E:A, I can't help but feel disappointed : it looks kind of weak, especially when compared to the Mega-Gargant. While the Ork machine is laden with MW and TK weapons, the poor Imperator has "D3x Volcano Cannon" and "3D6 BP" ??? ???. I mean, come on, these are stats for Orks weapons and hardly fitting the Imperium's best of the best.
So I dug up (almost literally) my copies of TL and E40K books and did a little comparison on an Excel file (I have no way to upload it on the Net but am willing to send it to anybody who's interested). I won't go into details, but it shows that the Imperator Titan has gone down in power (although it was at an all-time low during E40K), while the Mega-Gargant is rather more powerful now than it used to be.


OK, enough ranting, on to my proposed rules. Modifications to existing rules are in bold font.

IMPERATOR TITAN

Type: War Engine
Speed: 15 cm
Armour: 4+
CC: 3+
FF: 3+

Weapons (Firing arcs are unchanged)

- Plasma Annihilator
? 90cm / 4x MW2+ / TK(D3), Slow-firing
- Hellstorm Cannon
? 75 cm / 12 BP / Ignore cover
- Main Battery (replaces Demolisher Cannon)
? 90 cm / 6 BP / Ignore Cover
- Defence Laser
? 90 cm/ MW2+/AA4+ / TK(D3)
- 2x Lascannon
? 45 cm / AT5+/AA5+
- 4x Battle Cannon
? 75 cm / AP4+/AT4+
- 10x Heavy Bolter
? 30cm / AP5+

Notes: Supreme Commander, Inspiring, Fearless, Reinforced Armour, Walker, Sensorium Dome. May step over units and impassable terrain that is lower than the Titan's knees and up to 2cm wide.

Damage Capacity 18
Void Shields 8

Critical hit:
The Imperator's Sensorium Dome is smashed. It may no longer split fire. Any further critical hit damages the Imperator's plasma reactor. Roll a D6 in the end phase, etc.

Special Rule: Sensorium Dome
The Imperator is so huge that it is crewed by a vast number of servants, etc. which allows the Titan to fire at several targets at once.
As long as the Sensorium Dome is intact, the following special rule apply to the Imperator Titan:
When taking a Sustained Fire action, The Imperator may split fire between two target formations (range and LOS limitations apply normally). However, when doing so, none of the Imperator's weapons gain the usual +1 bonus for taking a Sustained Fire action.

----------------
----------------

OK, this is it.

The splitting fire rule is, I think, Ilushia's (I can't find the corresponding thread, but I'm very good at stealing other people's ideas). I just renamed it "Sensorium Dome" and tied the rule to a critical. It makes more sense and that way we don't need a universal rule, it only applies to Imperator Titans.

The Plasma Annihilator is now a Slow-firing weapon, meaning you can either unload all its power in one go or fire smaller bursts each turn, just like it used to be in Titan Legion (TL). Also, this is essentially a powered-up version of the Plasma Destructor, which is only fitting in my opinion.

The Hellstorm Cannon now looks more like the terrifying weapon it is supposed to be, not some water gun that will fire a 3BP barrage on a bad day. I upped its range because it used to be 100 cm in TL.

I replaced the Demolisher Cannon by the Main Battery. Not only was the Demolished Cannon a ridiculous thing on such a huge WE, but the actual weapon is much bigger than a Demolisher Cannon. It used to be D6+3 BP, 200 cm, -3 save mod. back in TL, so I turned it into a 6BP, 90 cm weapon and added Ignore Cover to make it fit with the Hellstorm Cannon.

Finally, I upped the number of Heavy Bolters to make the Titan looks more menacing at close range (just like it should be).

Pointswise, I reckon this beast is well worth 2250 points.

What do you think? ?:D

EDIT: added Supreme Commander.

EDIT 2: added Inspiring as well, and modified the estimated points cost (see on page 2 for the detailed calculation).






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 Post subject: Imperator Titan
PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 1:43 pm 
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Having never played AMTL, I can say that the write-up is succinct and easily understood.  I think the thing is VERY POWERFUL but a 2000 point price tag seems about right at first glance.  If there is an exception to the split fire rule, the Imperator (and subsequently the Mega Gargant) should have it IMO.

My thoughts from reading AMTL posts was that the Imperator was dropped in range, firepower, DC, et al., in order to bring its point value down and make it easier to field in a game.  I might be wrong on this but I could swear I read some thread relating to that.

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 Post subject: Imperator Titan
PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 1:49 pm 
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Quote (Moscovian @ 23 June 2006 (13:43))
My thoughts from reading AMTL posts was that the Imperator was dropped in range, firepower, DC, et al., in order to bring its point value down and make it easier to field in a game. ?I might be wrong on this but I could swear I read some thread relating to that.

Well, I think that was the intent too, but let's face it : the Imperator is way too big and too powerful to fit in a 3000 points game anyway, so we might as well give it stats that reflect its power level.

And by the way, the Mega-Gargant and its 17 BP MW barrages (not to mention it numerous TK weapons) doesn't seem to have suffered much from the downsizing that has affected the Imperator... 17 BP MW... ?:80:






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 Post subject: Imperator Titan
PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 2:42 pm 
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So play some games with it and let's see how it does. :cool:

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 Post subject: Imperator Titan
PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 4:33 pm 
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I've actually played with the Imperator titan, admittedly only once so far, and I can say at 1,600 points it's actually quite nice. The Imperator has one major advantage to it: The enemy WANTS to kill it. And he WILL throw a lot of stuff at it. Mine absorbed basically the entire firepower of the enemy army for three full turns before it went down. And that was while under fire from an Aeonic Orb and a Pylon. Probably would have done much much better had I made some other choices (Like turning it around to blow away the units behind it).

Otherwise: These stats look good for it. I'd probably only charge 1800-2000 for it, myself. It's remarkably easy to take down if the enemy has any significant numbers of AT/MW/TK shots in his army since it will be practically your entire army. Personally I think that Emperor class titans should have 'Supreme Commander' and count as your 1 Legate choice, as well. Since I can't imagine them handing off an Emperor to anyone BUT a Legate, and if the Emperor is on the field it almost certainly is acting as the command unit for the legio.


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 Post subject: Imperator Titan
PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 5:01 pm 
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Nice stats, Hojyn. I agree that an Imperator should be superior to a Mega-Gargant. I also like the split fire. My only suggestion is to allow it to fire at more than two formations.

I might be alone on this, but I don't think 8 void shields aren't enough. Afterall, it used to have 12. All the other titans have kept the same number of void shields, why not the Imperator?

Ilushia, I like your idea of an Imperator having "Supreme Commander".

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 Post subject: Imperator Titan
PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 5:03 pm 
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Quote (Ilushia @ 23 June 2006 (16:33))
Personally I think that Emperor class titans should have 'Supreme Commander' and count as your 1 Legate choice, as well. Since I can't imagine them handing off an Emperor to anyone BUT a Legate, and if the Emperor is on the field it almost certainly is acting as the command unit for the legio.

That's a good point.

I'll edit my first post to add the Supreme Commander ability.

That should definitely put the Imperator at 2000 points, though.


I've actually played with the Imperator titan, admittedly only once so far.


Did you use your "may split fire if on Sustained Fire orders" rule? What did you think about it?

I really like this rule because it's so simple and yet rather logical.





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 Post subject: Imperator Titan
PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 5:13 pm 
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Quote (Dwarf Supreme @ 23 June 2006 (17:01))
Nice stats, Hojyn. I agree that an Imperator should be superior to a Mega-Gargant. I also like the split fire. My only suggestion is to allow it to fire at more than two formations.

Actually, I thought about that one too (with a -1 modifier for each extra formation after the second one), but decided against it for two reasons :

- balance: even if you do no damage, putting BMs on several formations at once is a powerful ability;

- efficiency: with a -1 or -2 (or even -3 if you go berserk) modifier, you would only end up putting BMs on formations, making the whole rule rather pointless

I might be alone on this, but I don't think 8 void shields aren't enough. Afterall, it used to have 12. All the other titans have kept the same number of void shields, why not the Imperator?


You're not alone. :) But I thought I would actually play with the Imperator to see if it needs more protection of not.

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 Post subject: Imperator Titan
PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 6:15 pm 
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Without quite a few games with these stats, I could not know for sure if it is too much or not.

On another note, try very hard to avoid using past editions specs as justification for EA specs. Too many of the game mechanices do not play the same. Go for the feel first.

Just my .02

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 Post subject: Imperator Titan
PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 6:30 pm 
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Void Shields have actually become a bit easier to knock down these days (You only need to hit the titan, not exceed the 12 for attack ability to knock them down the way you did under AT-II). But not a whole lot since many things became less accurate. I was thinking about putting the Emperor at 12 void shields, but it just seemed like it'd be very very hard to knock them all down with any degree of consistency.

I hadn't actually come up with the split-fire rule at the point I played the game (The rule was actually partly inspired by that game. Where my Emperor kept being forced to fire weapons which weren't nearly in range at an enemy because it couldn't advance through the wall of Scouts between it and that enemy). The reason I was specifying just 2 formations is more or less what Hojyn said, at more then 2 formations you can putu down too many blast markers. And really 2 should be plenty. That lets you go 'I dump 5x TK(d3) shots into your Warlord, and put 18 BP, 2 Lascannons and 4 Battlecannons into your Supreme Commander's unit' or the like. Sufficient fire-power to blow away a huge chunk of enemies without wasting half your shots.

Really, though, the Emperor is most good for being a humongous target. It'll absorb huge amounts of enemy fire for several turns, giving the rest of your army a lot of freedom to run all over the board and claim objectives and the like  (And had I been smarter about how I usued it, I suspect I would have gone a lot farther). I really do like this list of stats though. The only weapon I have any trouble with is the Plasma Annihilator being Slow Firing, but it sounds like that's an appropriate idea based on the older stuff so I won't fight with it.


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 Post subject: Imperator Titan
PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 10:33 pm 
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Quote (Ilushia @ 23 June 2006 (18:30))
I really do like this list of stats though. The only weapon I have any trouble with is the Plasma Annihilator being Slow Firing, but it sounds like that's an appropriate idea based on the older stuff so I won't fight with it.

Well, Slow-firing is there to compensate the terrifying power of the 90 cm, 4x MW2+ TK(D3) shots.

Reducing the number of shots would keep it in check as well, but the Plasma Annihilator is supposed to be one of the most powerful weapons around, and considering its smaller cousin the Plasma Destructor is 90cm, 4x MW3+, these stats look just about right (well, to me, at least  :) ).


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 Post subject: Imperator Titan
PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 10:38 pm 
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Well, by the same means, compare it with a Nova Cannon. Nova Cannon is 4x MW3+ TK(D3). No slow-firing. Now, maybe this is appropriate, after all the Nova Cannon IS supposed to be an adapted starship weapon, it just seems odd that the comparatively much smaller weapon carried by a vastly smaller craft will be significantly more powerful then this thing is. It's understandable, though, from a balance standpoint. The Nova Cannon is basically 500 points for just that on a relatively durable platform.


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 Post subject: Imperator Titan
PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 10:46 pm 
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Quote (dafrca @ 23 June 2006 (18:15))
On another note, try very hard to avoid using past editions specs as justification for EA specs. Too many of the game mechanics do not play the same. Go for the feel first.

Actually, that's what I did, I went for the feel first. :)

What I did was compare the stats of different weapons within the same system, to get the "feel" of the weapon, and then compared each system to see if the weapons kept the same relative power level.

Example:

Titan Legion

Plasma Annihilator (at max power)
150 cm/3 attack dice/3+ to hit/-6 save modifier
Volcano Cannon
100cm/1 attack die/3+ to hit/-4 save modifier

So the Plasma Annihilator is roughly 3 times more powerful than the Volcano Cannon. A bit more actually, since it has longer range and a better save modifier.

EDIT: Actually, I think the Plasma Annihilator might have been even more powerful than that... I can't find my TL rulebook, only the huge Imperator datasheet, but I think you could actually use more plasma markers to power it up, so it could be (number of plasma markers) x 3 attack dice. Could anybody confirm this?

Epic 40K

Plasma Annihilator
60 cm/3x 2+ to hit, with automatic critical on war engines
Volcano Cannon
60 cm/2+ to hit, with automatic critical on war engines

Here, the Plasma Annihilator is exactly 3 times more powerful the the Volcano Cannon.

Epic Armageddon

Plasma Annihilator
90 cm/D3x MW2+/TK(D3)
Volcano Cannon
90 cm/MW2+/TK(D3)

In E:A, the Plasma Annihilator definitely went down in power, since it now has 1 chance in 3 to do exactly the same thing as a Volcano Cannon, no more.

Hence my proposal of 90cm/4x MW2+ TK(D3), Slow Firing. The weapon stats are now 4 times as good as a Volcano Cannon, but Slow-Firing helps to compensate for that.

So, by comparing specific weapon stats, I think got the "feel" of the Plasma Annihilator. ?:(8:






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 Post subject: Imperator Titan
PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 10:49 pm 
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Quote (Ilushia @ 23 June 2006 (22:38))
Well, by the same means, compare it with a Nova Cannon. Nova Cannon is 4x MW3+ TK(D3). No slow-firing. Now, maybe this is appropriate, after all the Nova Cannon IS supposed to be an adapted starship weapon, it just seems odd that the comparatively much smaller weapon carried by a vastly smaller craft will be significantly more powerful then this thing is. It's understandable, though, from a balance standpoint. The Nova Cannon is basically 500 points for just that on a relatively durable platform.

Well, I don't have the rules for the Nova Cannon at hand (gotta dig in my White Dwarf collection again), but I seem to remember it was an enhanced version of the Plasma Annihilator.

It used the same system of Plasma marker, but was capable of doing more damage (I think). If my memory is not playing tricks on me, having the Nova Cannon as a non "Slow-firing" weapon would fit, then.






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 Post subject: Imperator Titan
PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 1:16 pm 
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After some discussion on the French forum Warmania, I've added Inspiring (if an Imperator Titan isn't an inspiring sight, what is? :p) and revised the points cost at 2250 instead of 2000.

Here's how I worked it out (I'm no games designer, so rough estimations are involved) :

- 1 Reaver chassis (with no weapons) is worth about 500 points.
- 1 Imperator chassis (with no weapons) equals roughly 3 Reaver chassis > 500 x 3 = 1500.
- Only 8 shields on an Imperator > price reduced at 1400.
- 150 points for each main weapon (Plasma Annihilator & Hellstorm Cannon) > 1400 + 300 = 1700.
- Main Battery and Defence Laser at 75 points each > 1700 + 150 = 1850
- Rest of the weapons at 150 points > 1850 + 150 = 2000
- Abilities (Fearless, Walker, Supreme Commander, Inspiring and Sensorium Dome) are well worth 250 points, for a grand total of 2250 points.

This may need to be adjusted, though.

On another note, I just remembered the Imperator used to be able to carry lots of infantry stands... Should we add this capacity as well? How much should it cost?






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