Tactical Command
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/

AMTL, OGBM & GT Scenario
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=5310		 Page 1 of 5
Author:  dysartes [ Sat Jan 28, 2006 8:39 am ]
Post subject:  AMTL, OGBM & GT Scenario
Right - question/new discussioon for y'all.

I've seen more than a couple of people (nealhunt & Jaldon spring to mind as recent examples) say that they don't feel that we can get the AMTL & OGBM lists balanced for tournament play in the GT scenario. Personally, I disagree with this, but here are my questions for those of you who feel this way.

1, Why do you feel we can't get these two armies balanced for the GT scenario?

2, Based off the latest versions of the lists (AMTL 2.0 & OGBM 1.6, IIRC), what could be done to the lists in order to balance them for GT play?

Here's hoping for some constructive feedback.....
Author:  Hojyn [ Sat Jan 28, 2006 10:39 am ]
Post subject:  AMTL, OGBM & GT Scenario
Personally, having played AMTL twice now, I don't feel there are too many issues concerning tournaments and GT scenario.

Sure, they have lots of War Engine, but if you're going to a tournament it's rather easy to prepare for that.

- Eldar can include a Scorpion or two, or Cobras, or other Titans ;

- IG not only has Shadowswords (I've learned to fear them), but also Deathstrike missiles ;

- Orks can take Supa-zzap-gunz (at 50 points per MW3+ TK(D3) 60cm shot, I'd take those anyway, they're great!) ;

- Marines will probably have a harder time, but they have enough mobility to hit only one Titan at a time and ignore the others.

I think most of these weapons have their place in any tournament army. And that's only if you intend to destroy all the Titans. You can (try to) ignore mosts of the Titans and only concentrate on the BTS Titan, or try take advantage of the greater mobility of your troops to control/contest objectives.

I'm not saying facing AMTL is going to be easy, but neither do I think it's impossible to prepare against them or even adapt your playstyle when facing them.
Author:  Honda [ Sat Jan 28, 2006 11:34 am ]
Post subject:  AMTL, OGBM & GT Scenario

1, Why do you feel we can't get these two armies balanced for the GT scenario?

2, Based off the latest versions of the lists (AMTL 2.0 & OGBM 1.6, IIRC), what could be done to the lists in order to balance them for GT play?


Based on discussions I've had with others, because our group is rather new to this version of Epic, the issues revolve around:

1. It isn't a question of whether or not the individual lists have tools that can take on the AMTL/OGBM. Each list, knowing that they are going to face them has tools as Hojyn pointed out.

2. The real issue is when you take a "macro" view (tournament situations) of list dynamics vs. a "micro" view (one off games). In order to deal with the AMTL/OGBM, other lists have to be constructed in such a way to deal with them, that they become vulnerable to other lists tuned to a tournament setting.

Example:

I am a Tau player. Using the Tau list, I can take selections that are geared for engagements against another that fields a high percentage of titan type units (with AX-1-0 Tigersharks, Morays, Scorpionfish, etc.) and give them a hard time. However, in my next tournament game it is possible that I'll face an Ork horde army, who will then wipe me off the table because I have too many expensive units (in points) geared towards hard targets, who are unable to put enough shots on softer targets (e.g. 'Uge infantry mobs). If I weren't going to face AMTL/OGBM, then I would never invest in those choices. If I take a more balanced "tournament" list, I don't have the tools to deal with Titans.

So, to summarize, it appears that the AMTL/OGBM "are" relatively balanced for one off games, but their inclusion in tournament situations completely flips the list dynamics. What I would be concerned about from a AMTL/OGBM perspective is that to make them tournament friendly, you'd have to make the kind of concessions that would gut the list.

JMO
Author:  Hojyn [ Sat Jan 28, 2006 12:10 pm ]
Post subject:  AMTL, OGBM & GT Scenario
Quote (Honda @ 28 Jan. 2006 (10:34))
1. It isn't a question of whether or not the individual lists have tools that can take on the AMTL/OGBM. Each list, knowing that they are going to face them has tools as Hojyn pointed out.

Actually, I was saying just the opposite. :(8:

My point was that each list has tools to take on the AMTL/OGBM list AND that these tools are relatively easy to add in a tournament list WITHOUT making said list a one-trick pony.

For example, in an Ork army, for 200 points you can have 4 Supa-zzap-gunz, which are great to destroy titans but also good against other armies.

A Shadowsword is a wonderful titan-killer, but against any other formations it's a guaranteed kill and 2BM. Even if you're facing Orks or Tyranids, this can come in handy.

Same thing for Eldar Scorpions or Cobras.

Marines can take Warhounds or Land Speeders, both of which have uses besides taking on titans.

As for the experimental lists, I only really know about Necrons, but I think the Pylon is a great example of versatility : it doubles as a titan-killer AND a terrifying AA weapon, so it will rarely be wasted, no matter who your opponent is.

Is AMTL overpowered in GT scenarios ? IMO, no. Is it a tough and unusual list ? IMO, yes.

Perhaps the problem lies not in the AMTL/OGBM lists themselves, but in the lack of versatility of some other lists (Marines for example). And I'm not saying Marines should get more TK weapons, just that armies play differently from each other and will have a harder time against some opponents than most of the other armies (although victory will still be possible). That's OK in my book.
Author:  BlackLegion [ Sat Jan 28, 2006 4:12 pm ]
Post subject:  AMTL, OGBM & GT Scenario
My suggestions: Play a turney! And then see if the AMTL wins it :) Repeast the turney (with different army composition if wished) and see who wins the turney then.
Author:  Legion 4 [ Sat Jan 28, 2006 5:02 pm ]
Post subject:  AMTL, OGBM & GT Scenario
How about an AMTL vs. OGBM :alien: game !!! :D ?Big Boys vs. 'Uge BOYZ !! :alien: ?:;):
Author:  Chroma [ Sat Jan 28, 2006 8:03 pm ]
Post subject:  AMTL, OGBM & GT Scenario
I've brought OGBM to a tournament before... and lost. ?*laugh*

It was a 3000 point setup and I played three games.

First a regular Ork Horde took me down; beating on my Gargants and gun mobz, and won the game in turn 3. ?Massed firepower will definitely harm Gargants. ?They had a regular Gargant and a Stompa Mob with Supa-Stompa vs my Great Gargant, Gargant, Blasta Gargant, and Kustom Gargant. ?After the initial shock of seeing so much stompiness on my side of the table, the battle progressed for a fun filled couple of hours and it was a great game even if I was beaten. ?

As well, I fought an Ulthw? army that had a pair of Revenants, 2 pairs of Scorpions and a pair of Cobras! ?Plus a bunch of other stuff... and the Eldar went down in turn 4. ?I'd lost the Kustom Gargant, the Revenants spent most of the game broken and there was one left with 1 DC at the end and all the Engines of Vaul were gone.

The third game was against White Scars; it only went to two turns and was called on time and was so close that it was declared a tie (which I certainly didn't begrudge the Marine player, as he played very well!).

So, what made the difference? ?The players, not the armies. ?The Eldar player was relatively inexperienced and panicked seeing all those Big Things against him and threw tactics to the wind just hoping to blast them. ?The Marine and Ork players stopped, focused, and realized the weaknesses of such slow lumbering enemies and exploited them. ?None of the armies were "kustomized" to fight war engine opponents, thought the Ulthw? one was certainly, on paper, the best suited for it, though it would've been just as strong against any other army.

I believe Most of the concern is due to inexperience and just looking at paper and stats, not actually playing out games. ?Certainly "broken" armies can be made using the lists, but that's essentially true of any of them!

Remember, you don't have to destroy the enemy to win, you just need to get the job done!
Author:  Legion 4 [ Sun Jan 29, 2006 7:20 am ]
Post subject:  AMTL, OGBM & GT Scenario
It's not the weapons, but the leaders behind them ... :;):
Author:  Jaldon [ Sun Jan 29, 2006 6:45 pm ]
Post subject:  AMTL, OGBM & GT Scenario
Quote
I've brought OGBM to a tournament before... and lost. *laugh*
End Quote

Yes, so have I and I've beaten the list before, as with AMTL. This only shows that it can be done, not whether the list is balanced or not.

Quote
Great Gargant, Gargant, Blasta Gargant, and Kustom Gargant.
End Quote

Trade the Great Gargant in and try one or two walking Submarines (Kustom Krawlwers) full of Loota Boyz and see if this changes things. It is a devastating combination.

Quote
the Revenants spent most of the game broken
End Quote

You mean suppressed, right? Revs are fearless and cannot be broken.

Quote
I believe Most of the concern is due to inexperience and just looking at paper and stats, not actually playing out games.
End Quote

I would hardly call the group I game with inexperienced either in Epic-A in general or with the OBGM/AMTL lists. In fact very much the opposite, we have been messing with Epic-A from day one, and both the before mentioned lists from v1.0 on.

Quote
Remember, you don't have to destroy the enemy to win, you just need to get the job done!
End Quote

I couldn't agree more with this statement, a fact many players seem to miss when they talk about whether a list is balanced or not. The post about the 1942 British and the German Tiger Tank I made on the SG boards makes just that point.

No the opponents don't panic, no they don't slam headlong into the WEs and try to mow them down, and yes they do exploit the slow speed/reaction time of the OGBM/AMTL lists. No doubts, it has made for some very interesting battles, and we enjoyed all of them, and expect to have even more fun using them.

My concern is that it just may not be possible to make them balanced lists within the framework of the Epic-A core rules. For sure our experience using them to date is that they win far more often then they lose when handled by experienced players/opponents.

That is not to say that we shouldn't try, or that I feel Dysartes and PG haven't done a good job thus far, or haven't made progress. They have, they do, and I thank them heartly for the fine work they have done thus far.

Rather that they have a real tough job in front of them, and that posters should not be using the AMTL/OGBM lists as a gauge of whether another non-war engine heavy army list is balanced or not because it isn't clear just how well balanced these two lists are at this time.

Is this better?

As for a real solution to the problem, I wish I had the answer Dysartes cause I would have sent it too you already. I just know at this time the win/loss ratio among experienced players here still favors the Titan lists.

Jaldon :p
Author:  BlackLegion [ Sun Jan 29, 2006 6:55 pm ]
Post subject:  AMTL, OGBM & GT Scenario
So what IS a balanced list? If it can be beaten 50% of the battles, then it should be fine, isn't it?

So what makes the AMTL&OGBM armies unbalanced?
Author:  Chroma [ Sun Jan 29, 2006 7:34 pm ]
Post subject:  AMTL, OGBM & GT Scenario
Originally posted by Jaldon

Trade the Great Gargant in and try one or two walking Submarines (Kustom Krawlwers) full of Loota Boyz and see if this changes things. It is a devastating combination.

Well, I've done the single Kustom Krawlwer with reinforced boilers, "zooming" up at 25cm and packed with dreads and kans, and, yes, it's deadly, but still stoppable.

At 3000 points, I hate using Orks without a Supreme Commander; being unable to rally broken units really sucks.  As well, I really like have two twin-soopa guns and another soopa-gun dropping 8BP!  *laugh*

You mean suppressed, right? Revs are fearless and cannot be broken.
Nope, I mean broken. Six BMs breaks them, the Blasta Gargant was laying a *lot* of BMs, and they're unable to activate or perform any actions other than withdrawl moves (if they so choose).  Fearless just means they don't suffer BM hits, hack downs, and wipe-outs.

I would hardly call the group I game with inexperienced either in Epic-A in general or with the OBGM/AMTL lists. In fact very much the opposite, we have been messing with Epic-A from day one, and both the before mentioned lists from v1.0 on.
That's why I said "I believe" Jaldon, because that's been my experience.  Eventually people get over the "Oh d@mn!" response and try to figure out a way to beat them, it's just not always apparent or easy to do and people see to find it a very satisfying victory when they beat them.

My concern is that it just may not be possible to make them balanced lists within the framework of the Epic-A core rules. For sure our experience using them to date is that they win far more often then they lose when handled by experienced players/opponents.
I can only really speak for experience with OGBM (Have only had one AMTL game in our group, vs 'Nids, and the Bugs eviscerated the Titans!), and I'm wondering what you see as essentially "unbalanced" with them?  In essence, a very convincing OGBM-style army could be made using just the basic Ork list taking Gargants and Stompa Mobs, with some extra units as filler.  Would you consider that unbalanced?

The only "obvious" area of concern I can see with the Titan list is the complete customizability of the weapon load-outs.  With OGBM you're, basically, paying 50 points to swap a single weapon or system on a Gargant, but with Titans, you're basically free to make the "perfect" mixes.  I think assigning point values to the various weapon systems makes more sense to me, or having specific "combos" that are standard Titan types (though I know this approach is vehemently despised by some Titan players), that way there's a little more control and restraint that allows for testing and balancing.

Thoughts?
Author:  NOVAGUARD [ Sun Jan 29, 2006 11:19 pm ]
Post subject:  AMTL, OGBM & GT Scenario
i know im new to the forum, so you guys wont have had any input for me on battles but iv found the AMTL list to be ballanced but tricky for an ?opponent to face for the 1st time. in a generic torny pick up and play, the number of warmachines can be imposeing, but a warlord is more expensive than two landraider detachments... and on sustained fire they can seriously dent a warlord.so marines can do the job.

so the list is ballanced (roughly even as a AMTL player i can see logic behind the weapon fit for points idea... hate to work all the points out thou)

the main issue i find is an opponents first thought of "how many titans!!!"
after that its down to big targets that can take a kicking and still tick.

and does anyone else find distrupt weapons put a crimp in a titans day?
Author:  Jaldon [ Mon Jan 30, 2006 12:39 am ]
Post subject:  AMTL, OGBM & GT Scenario
and does anyone else find distrupt weapons put a crimp in a titans day?


Only if its shields are down, otherwise the Disrupt weapon has no extra effect.

So what IS a balanced list? If it can be beaten 50% of the battles, then it should be fine, isn't it?
So what makes the AMTL&OGBM armies unbalanced?

Um, that around here OGBM/AMTL is winning around 65 to 70% of the time with experienced players using/facing the AMTL OGBM lists.

i know im new to the forum, so you guys wont have had any input for me on battles but iv found the AMTL list to be ballanced but tricky for an  opponent to face for the 1st time.

As stated above and now again here, we have been playtesting both lists from v1.0 to the present, the post are based upon that information, NOT on someone whom has never faced the list before.

To merely keep repeating  "Well it must be because the person(s) facing the list were inexperienced and/or shocked by the number of Titan Class WEs" when it has been repeatedly stated they weren't doesn't get us any closer helping further the causes of the Dysartes or PG in the work on these lists.

Yes I am of the opinion that it just might not be possible to create a balanced GT list for OGBM and the AMTL.

But I am also convineced..............

That we should continue work on both lists and see if it is possible to work around this problem. Truth is at a 65 to 70% win ratio it can't be that far off. Who knows, with a bit more hard work I may be proven incorrect in believing it may not be possible.

It wouldn't be the first time I was proven wrong, probably wouldn't be the last, and I'd be glad to see it.

Jaldon :p
Author:  Chroma [ Mon Jan 30, 2006 1:52 am ]
Post subject:  AMTL, OGBM & GT Scenario
Quote (Jaldon @ 29 Jan. 2006 (23:39))
Um, that around here OGBM/AMTL is winning around 65 to 70% of the time with experienced players using/facing the AMTL OGBM lists.

Jaldon, is your group posting these results to Battlestats?  

Just so we could get a feel for what armies are winning/losing against the Big Boys?  At 2700 points I'm just not seeing OGBM dominating like that... that's the Eldar's job!  *laugh*
Author:  Jaldon [ Mon Jan 30, 2006 5:57 am ]
Post subject:  AMTL, OGBM & GT Scenario
I made a promise awhile ago that I would stay tight lipped about the Eldar Army and Spi** St****, along with Ho** Fi**** and them working in As***** C*s, until the army review.

As for putting them up on battle stats, when I am in town, or not changing servers once a week, yes they do get put up.

Basically, most of our games occur in what we call "In The Box", niether players knows who or what they will be facing in the game. This prevents players from min-max their lists for certain armies. These are the games that get put in the battlestats.

The rest are either one offs for fun, mega-battles, or min-max test games to see if it can be done.

All battlestat posted battles, and all batreps are run by the letter of the rule book, is played on a 6'x4' table, contains 12xTerrain features (their size determined in the rule book), and we use a program I wrote for terrain placement.

Considering the number of non-OGBM/AMTL battles we haven't been playing lately I doubt if they have much effect on the Battlestats. Still the few that have been played lately haven't showed a change in the trend.

Taking this all in, and after much thought, I think I can put my finger on why this is occurring, because we already accept the fact that the players we are discussing here are not suffering from 'New List Jitters' nor 'Look At All Those Titans'

Most GT armies players 'In The Box' are putting together are capable of negating aircraft and Titans at the 1/3 limit set for them. However when that limit is reversed they begin to struggle against them (Note I didn't say always lose).

I believe that is the real issue and I am at a loss as to how to solve it so that both OGBM and AMTL can be included as GT lists. Truthfully I wish I knew as I do want them included.

It is interesting to note that some SM players are using the OGBM and AMTL lists to say that the marines need a MW fix of some kind, it is how this whole debate got started. When in fact they are incorrect, the SM don't need a MW 'fix', they can handle Titans as well as any other army if not a bit better because of their overall maneuverability.

As for specific armies, it seems to be pretty much across the board with Orks fairing a bit better because it is real hard to turn down a 50pt Oddboy  :alien:

Jaldon :p
Page 1 of 5 All times are UTC [ DST ]
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/