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another worrying view point is only 9 voted on the issues, 9 out of the whole community, that speaks volums that hardly anyone fields this army due to its build restriction/chassis cost & low activation count, the skitari list already exists with TL support, the War Gryphon list is losing its focus on being TL & becomming a skitari hybrid.

I know for a fact many players in Aus all own a titan Legion, we just don't currently play them as they're not great for GT play

We could remove the corvus restriction on the skitarii, but I'd increase the cost of the demi-century to 250 points to match the Skitarii list.

. They are pretty well balanced within the price brackets and they've had years of playtesting and point tweaks to get to where we are today. That doesn't make a strong case for any price reductions to weapons choices. I also disagree with removing the single weapon surcharge. It helps nudge player to add different weapons options and mitigates certain titan configs that were a bit too strong. You can make a case for it's removal but there are reasons it exists and I've not heard a good argument for why we should remove it.

To be honest I don't really have too much of a problem with the weapons.
It's more the other support units that I think need a tweak.
I find the robots too easily removed, so you quickly end up without the activation you bought them for, at a minimum of fuss for your opponent.
Personally I'd like to see infantry on foot as an option. It wouldn't be overly powerful (I don't think anyway), isn't fast at all so doesn't break the list, and is in line with the narrative.
However I'm certainly not the most adept Titan player, but I thought I would share my thoughts anyway.

OK you build a SHT Tank Coy using Shadowswords (free cost to have Baneblades upgraded to them) and a Hydra, 10DC 3 Volcano Canons, Commisar, AA Capability, plus bolters - 550points. Also at a stretch this unit can cover 50cm of ground.

Now build a single Warlord with the a comparable setup - 3 volcano - gatling blaster from a scout titan, carapace lasers, single weapon surcharge, vet princep - 950 points

One thing that could help would be to include the carapae multilasers on every reaver and warlords chassis. Or atleast lower the cost to 25p.
Also removing the single weapon surcharge could be good.

Author:	Vaaish [ Mon Oct 10, 2016 6:27 pm ]
Post subject:	AMTL Tweaks
Since a majority of you either found the list to be underpowered or thought there could be a few tweaks, I'd like to get things started with a couple of thoughts: Collector's weapons: These will need a lot of point tweaks to work. Some things I think would be fine like the head options, while most of the CC weapons are a bit crazy and would require some better point values before we could allow access. Collectors upgrades. I think these could be allowed in with minor tweaks. For instance, the banner pole just grants inspiring and not the speed boost. Titan weapons: I'm pretty happy with the weapon balance in the list as it is and I don't think we need to tweak anything there. Titan chassis: I feel that the Warlord hull is too expensive to allow it to show up very often. Maybe a 25-50 point drop. I'm also think the reaver hull needs to drop to 550 points again, however we need to be careful that we don't run into the 4 reaver free weapon issue that caused the points to go up. There is a potential this won't be as problematic since the sentinels aren't there to inflate activations. Thoughts?

Author:	Matty_C [ Mon Oct 10, 2016 10:30 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: AMTL Tweaks
To be honest I don't really have too much of a problem with the weapons. It's more the other support units that I think need a tweak. I find the robots too easily removed, so you quickly end up without the activation you bought them for, at a minimum of fuss for your opponent. Personally I'd like to see infantry on foot as an option. It wouldn't be overly powerful (I don't think anyway), isn't fast at all so doesn't break the list, and is in line with the narrative. However I'm certainly not the most adept Titan player, but I thought I would share my thoughts anyway.

Author:	PFE200 [ Tue Oct 11, 2016 12:19 am ]
Post subject:	Re: AMTL Tweaks
Hi... I'd like to see infantry on foot as an option, as stated in the other post.. The Titan chassis points drop looks interesting..

Author:	Vaaish [ Tue Oct 11, 2016 6:21 am ]
Post subject:	Re: AMTL Tweaks
We could remove the corvus restriction on the skitarii, but I'd increase the cost of the demi-century to 250 points to match the Skitarii list.

Author:	junkstar [ Wed Oct 12, 2016 5:25 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: AMTL Tweaks
The problem is with titans cost vs their weapon power (dice/hit rates) why the need to add easily breakable units to points fill is beyond me. TL chassis cost coupled with weapon price reduction & possible removal of the single weapon surcharge needs to be addressed. another worrying view point is only 9 voted on the issues, 9 out of the whole community, that speaks volums that hardly anyone fields this army due to its build restriction/chassis cost & low activation count, the skitari list already exists with TL support, the War Gryphon list is losing its focus on being TL & becomming a skitari hybrid.

Tactical Command http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/

AMTL Tweaks http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=31702	Page 1 of 4

Author:	Vaaish [ Wed Oct 12, 2016 6:41 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: AMTL Tweaks
Polls typically have low response rates. Once a change is in place there's always a lot more chatter and opinions. I really wouldn't assume that just because few people responded that only a few people play the list much less assume why they don't play. There's simply no way you can draw that conclusion without everyone here posting their reasons. I wouldn't worry about the list being a hybrid. Titan legions are known to fight alongside skitarii and some even have their own dedicated tech guard. Having knights and skitarii in the list is entirely accurate and proper. You also have extremely restricted access to these support formations and most of the time one or two of those slots are locked down by tbolts. This structure has been in place for years and the focus is very solidly on the titans. I agree that we probably need to address the chassis and I think this is the first thing we need to explore, however I strongly disagree that the weapons need pricing changes. They are pretty well balanced within the price brackets and they've had years of playtesting and point tweaks to get to where we are today. That doesn't make a strong case for any price reductions to weapons choices. I also disagree with removing the single weapon surcharge. It helps nudge player to add different weapons options and mitigates certain titan configs that were a bit too strong. You can make a case for it's removal but there are reasons it exists and I've not heard a good argument for why we should remove it.

Author:	Mard [ Wed Oct 12, 2016 10:38 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: AMTL Tweaks
junkstar wrote: another worrying view point is only 9 voted on the issues, 9 out of the whole community, that speaks volums that hardly anyone fields this army due to its build restriction/chassis cost & low activation count, the skitari list already exists with TL support, the War Gryphon list is losing its focus on being TL & becomming a skitari hybrid. To be fair I don't think a lot of people new the poll existed and don't spend a lot of time on taccoms. Perhaps if you ran the poll on a few of the different Epic FB pages world wide you might get a better response. There's a about 4 pages I know of that have a lot of members and your poll would get a lot more traction. I know for a fact many players in Aus all own a titan Legion, we just don't currently play them as they're not great for GT play

Author:	Ginger [ Thu Oct 13, 2016 12:10 am ]
Post subject:	Re: AMTL Tweaks
Mard wrote: I know for a fact many players in Aus all own a titan Legion, we just don't currently play them as they're not great for GT play QFT. Whatever options and formations are fielded the result is a slow moving army with limited activations. In the 'tournament' scenario, this dictates the optimal number of battle Titans and optimal placement of objectives, that in turn results in very limited variations in tactics etc, the repetition of which can become boring.

Author:	PFE200 [ Thu Oct 13, 2016 12:34 am ]
Post subject:	Re: AMTL Tweaks
Vaaish wrote: We could remove the corvus restriction on the skitarii, but I'd increase the cost of the demi-century to 250 points to match the Skitarii list. I don't have problem with that...

Author:	junkstar [ Thu Oct 13, 2016 5:34 am ]
Post subject:	Re: AMTL Tweaks
Vaaish wrote: . They are pretty well balanced within the price brackets and they've had years of playtesting and point tweaks to get to where we are today. That doesn't make a strong case for any price reductions to weapons choices. I also disagree with removing the single weapon surcharge. It helps nudge player to add different weapons options and mitigates certain titan configs that were a bit too strong. You can make a case for it's removal but there are reasons it exists and I've not heard a good argument for why we should remove it. OK you build a SHT Tank Coy using Shadowswords (free cost to have Baneblades upgraded to them) and a Hydra, 10DC 3 Volcano Canons, Commisar, AA Capability, plus bolters - 550points. Also at a stretch this unit can cover 50cm of ground. Now build a single Warlord with the a comparable setup - 3 volcano - gatling blaster from a scout titan, carapace lasers, single weapon surcharge, vet princep - 950 points The weps were op for a singular reason - low activations, to give them a chance to whittle the opponent down. If you take 4 titans for example vs 12 activations of orks i doubt the titans will wipe out all 12 ork units after 3 turns, even with the uk wep list. In the 2016 championship, 1AMTL list, which relied on corvus pods for its survivability/cc ability had a draw loss loss iirc. Seen the player and the list at subsequent tournies, again its results were similar. AMTL only becomes fun to play thats right fun, when you play in excess of 4k points, at 3 k at tournies it has no bite, no activations and no fun with its muted weapon/high price ratio

Author:	junkstar [ Thu Oct 13, 2016 5:37 am ]
Post subject:	Re: AMTL Tweaks
Matty_C wrote: To be honest I don't really have too much of a problem with the weapons. It's more the other support units that I think need a tweak. I find the robots too easily removed, so you quickly end up without the activation you bought them for, at a minimum of fuss for your opponent. Personally I'd like to see infantry on foot as an option. It wouldn't be overly powerful (I don't think anyway), isn't fast at all so doesn't break the list, and is in line with the narrative. However I'm certainly not the most adept Titan player, but I thought I would share my thoughts anyway. Matty are you using the UK list or net EA lists as the weapon values vary considerably?

Author:	Vaaish [ Thu Oct 13, 2016 8:07 am ]
Post subject:	Re: AMTL Tweaks
Quote: OK you build a SHT Tank Coy using Shadowswords (free cost to have Baneblades upgraded to them) and a Hydra, 10DC 3 Volcano Canons, Commisar, AA Capability, plus bolters - 550points. Also at a stretch this unit can cover 50cm of ground. Now build a single Warlord with the a comparable setup - 3 volcano - gatling blaster from a scout titan, carapace lasers, single weapon surcharge, vet princep - 950 points That's not really an accurate comparison on any level really. The titan has 6 shields protecting it before it starts taking any damage at all that recharge and will retain the use of all three volcano cannons right up until it dies. On top of that it has fearless so you don't get any extra benefit from breaking it. Unless the titan has extremely poor rolls or the shadowswords get lucky it's not even a fair matchup.

Author:	mordoten [ Thu Oct 13, 2016 10:06 am ]
Post subject:	Re: AMTL Tweaks
One thing that could help would be to include the carapae multilasers on every reaver and warlords chassis. Or atleast lower the cost to 25p. Also removing the single weapon surcharge could be good.

Author:	Doomkitten [ Thu Oct 13, 2016 11:14 am ]
Post subject:	Re: AMTL Tweaks
mordoten wrote: One thing that could help would be to include the carapae multilasers on every reaver and warlords chassis. Or atleast lower the cost to 25p. Also removing the single weapon surcharge could be good. A flat 50 (or even 75 for warlords!) point reduction would let players choose between effectively free carapace lasers or an extra formation or two across a list. I see that as a useful step forward to making titans genuinely useful and fun. As for weapon surcharges - I'd rather extend carapace/arm mounting only limits, or simply note "max two" where necessary. No need for surcharges, it just doesn't strike me as the right way and further hurts a list already hurting for activations and playability.

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Author:	mordoten [ Thu Oct 13, 2016 12:35 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: AMTL Tweaks
True. lowering the costs of the chassis is a more flexible option.