Here we go again, time for a new status update on development.


ATML [Approved]

While this isn't my active focus for the moment, several potential issues are being investigated post approved. The first having to do with the support missile should now be resolved with the restriction to carapace only being fixed.

The second issue relates to the Plasma Destructor and has been put to extreme use in two playtests. Both were losses for AMTL. My inclination is that the expense just leaves ATML unable to cope with the objectives game T3 or T4 and that while devastating, games can be called pretty easily should the titans fail to wipe an entire activation per round that the PD shoots in lists that max it out.

The third issue brought up is warhound singles outfitted with TLD as being a bit too spammy. While this hasn't been tested as such since the thought was brought up, the TLD warhound and warhounds in general are some of the most tested units in the list and I can't recall a single game where they posed an issue. I feel that the God Machines rule and updated critical makes single warhounds a fairly poor choice in an AMTL list since they are fairly easy to kill and the loss of one or more can adversely affect the rest of the list.

The last point is with the cheapness and spamability of the Sentinel formation. I don't disagree there can be the option to run cheap titans with lots of sentinel activations. I'm not sure this poses a balance issue, though it certainly doesn't FEEL like a Titan list. Options here are to limit support slot openings to Battle Titans and potentially replace sentinels with the more expensive Crusaders. I'd lean toward the Crusaders myself.

Final Thoughts: For the moment no changes are going to be made to the AMTL list outside of fixing typos. This is especially true of changes like replacing Sentinels that would definitely send the list back to the developmental stage. Should time show that additional tweaks or more significant changes are in order we'll address them.

Skitarii [Developmental]

I've made cosmetic tweaks to add in FW weapons to the Skitarii list. At this point I don't see us changing stats unless we need to boost power anywhere. I feel confident this list is ready to be tested and approved. To that end, this will be the focus of most of my testing and what we'll create breaker lists for after discussion winds down in the AMTL threads. We also need to start thinking about expanding the Majoris weapons set to include other known Ordinatus weapons.

Since most of the active development is done with the Skitarii, it's time to start work on the Defense of Gryphonne IV module. We've started coming up with thoughts and ideas from the community as to what kinds of things should be in the module. From there we'll block in a support and allies section that can replace the same sections in the core Skitarii list and start testing after the Skitarii list gets the needed playtests.

Cataphtactii [Experimental]

This list is on hold until we get the Skitarii list sorted.

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-Vaaish

So, you think it's reasonable that the Plasma Destructor is 50% more killy than an Imperator's Plasma Annihilator? (against non-WE targets). That stands out as horribly wrong to me. Just increasing the range to 90cm (like Epic-UK have) makes the PD a good choice without it being stupidly overpowered.

I agree on Warhounds not being a problem.


I corrected you in the other thread already, but you must have missed it. This notion of 'sending the list back to developmental' is NOT how the process works. You are free to make small changes to your approved list and separately to put out a second developmental / playtest version of the list, for people to test and try out. If in time this playtest version gets enough testing it can replace the approved list, but if the changes prove problematic or it doesn't get enough testing then nothing happens and there is no effect at all on the approved version of the list.

This is how things are currently with the Tau, Eldar and Tyranid lists - all have playtest list versions out, altering things (considerably in some cases) with no effect on the approved versions of their lists in the Tournament Pack.

There really isn't any downside to doing it. It's nice to have the TL list approved at long last, but it would still be great to at least swap the Sentinels for Robots (fitting the background much better and helping cut down on high activation TL armies that are a potential balance concern). I'd playtest it for one.

AMTL

I don't mind Glyns idea with the PD. Will appease the "haters" (just kidding all you who easily take offense!) the rest i agree on. Crusaders should be in in the list and warhounds are not a problem.

Skitarii

I would like an explanation on what a module is? Is it a list on it's own? How do a player use it? How does it get approved?

I would also like to apply for a potential position as Sub-AC for the Skitarii list if there is an opening there...

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"You have a right to be offended" - Steve Hughes
"Your feelings are hurting my thoughts" - Aron Flam

Ok so lets say we have two identical tanks we are firing at. We have two different weapons. One weapon is an anti-tank missile. The other is a tactical nuke. The AT missile hits the first target and blows the turret off. The nuke vaporizes the tank entirely. The end result is the same, both tanks are dead. Just because one is completely vaporized doesn't make it any "more" dead than the one that got the turret blown off.

The point is that the Plasma Annihilator is the nuke. It is quantifiably more powerful per shot than the Plasma Destructor. The PD has more shots while the PA has more damaging shots. Just like you wouldn't have a different result despite the disproportionate power of the weapons above, you don't get one with the PD and PA until you start shooting RA.

Secondly, the PD hasn't been shown to be "stupidly" overpowered. Powerful, yes, but the two games maxing out on them were strong losses for the AMTL list. I get you don't like the 6x shots, but I might add that we put this to a poll and the option we have in the list now won.



I think it's a rather poor route to go to run concurrent dev this way unless you expect there to be significant differences from the Approved list. Splits the attention and creates possible confusion with new players grabbing the newest list without fully understanding what developmental means. Regardless of whether or not it's broken out into a separate list, it still means that whenever the changes are merged back to the Approved list the list has to be reviewed. I much prefer doing testing changes by updating the Playtest Changes thread so it's very clear that it's not an "official" release for the list.

I'll put Crusaders in the playtest changes thread for those who want to give it a go, but I'm not forking the list. When the time comes to merge playtest changes I'll have a talk with the ERC and see if we need additional playtests to maintain Approved for AMTL.

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-Vaaish

A module is an optional plugin to a list to change the theme to a specific event without needing to create an entirely separate list or having one massive list. In this case we are taking the generic Skitarii list and modifying it to represent the Nid invasion of Gryphonne IV. These modifications to the list can be significant but they aren't necessary so great that we could just create a completely separate list.

A module would have a preface noting what sections of the list it overrides. For instance the defense module could read "This module can be used to create a Skitarii force defending their home forgeworld. To use this module, replace the Support and Allies sections of the Skitarii list with the Support and Allies section below when selecting an army."

For approval we'd follow the same procedures for submission.



Thanks, but there isn't an opening for a Sub-AC right now. I'll keep you in mind in case something comes up and I need to pull in one though.

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-Vaaish

Thanks for the update Vaaish.

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Sorry Vaaish but you seem to be missing the point on the PD. The problem is that it's not fun to play against because it has so many high to-hit, MW shots. Doesn't "fun" play a part in a list too? Both with and against?

Maxing out doesn't prove the weapon to be less fun - it's already that. In the maxed out game example the LR company was still alive after shooting with 3PDs, but even if you'd only killed half with one PD (still a good possibility), the activation would still be there regardless, so activation count would still be the same - you can't get away from that with AMTL.

Even one of these weapons (not a maxed out titan list which reduces activations) can gut an army's key formations, and thus part of it's strategy, in a single shooting phase. Isn't that far too easy? Most other armies can only do this over multiple turns e.g that's three Warhound PBGs in one weapon and at 75cm to boot.


Almost wiping out a Leman Russ company with 3xPDs or whole 4-6 unit formations with one, I'm not sure that's true.


Sure, who wouldn't want 6x 2+MW with a 75cm range?

In the end, like Glyn says all these issues can be addressed in a separate Developmental list. I think most players who would use this list won't confuse it if it's marked accordingly.

If you'd like to continue the discussion on the PD, please move it back to the AMTL list thread. This thread is a status update not a discussion on weapon stats.

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-Vaaish