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[OLD] Knight World 2.0

 Post subject: Re: Knight World 2.0
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:38 pm 
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Warrior of Ultramar wrote:
Dare I say if that idea goes ahead (and I really like it, it fits well with the fluff) then drop the RR? I never saw much fluff reasoning behind having then in the Knight World list in the first place. Infantry, sure, you need someone to man the trenches, but horses? Isn't their job kinda covered by big stompy mech suits? :P

Also, despite my earlier comments regarding Knights not being a core formation, if the more recent fluff places them as ridden by nobles and being rare and hard to make, then actually, they should stay in the support section. Epic armies are all about fluff for me :)


I agree with both of these sentiments.

RR never really felt right in the list to begin with.

And Scouting and/or Infiltrating WE do not need to be core. Without those, mechanically there's no real argument from me, but fluff-wise it makes sense that they wouldn't be. There are some counter examples in the fluff (one Knight world where the terrain is so dense that Lancers are the primary suit, if I recall right), but those would normally be handled with a variant list, rather than trying to make them core in the main list.


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 Post subject: Re: Knight World 2.0
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 2:33 am 
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Dave wrote:
next time I'm going to ask to guys to do at least units of 4 and see how those go.

That's exactly what I'm planning on next time I play Knights. I wrote a list the day after playing while the previous day's results were fresh on my mind.

As for Scout for Lancers, it does fit the fluff. I can give it try next time and not field any Rough Riders.

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 Post subject: Re: Knight World 2.0
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 7:48 pm 
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On the subject of scout on lancers, Won't that be a little unwieldy? As the core rules state a WE has a unit coherency equal to 5cm X it's starting DC. So a baneblade has to only be 15cm from another unit in its formation, not 5cm, like normal. Would scout on Lancers mean they run around 10cm apart (as per the core rules) or 20cm? (as per for scouts?)

Secondly, I read through ALL the fluff in the new codex today. There is an AWFUL LOT of fluff stating that the Knight worlds regularly go to war alongside a FW's Titan Legions. They consider it a great honour. Indeed, some Knights that perform really well, or that perform great feats, are asked to be seconded to the TL permanently. Now I personally didn't think that Knights actually needed TL allies in their list (although yes, they used to have them) but maybe they should have the option for some basic Titan allies, just to stay in keeping with the new fluff? Not a fully variable TL, with any weapon options, just the basic titans. I know others on here think the same.

-WoU

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 Post subject: Re: Knight World 2.0
PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 9:37 pm 
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I put up a battle report from this morning. CaptPiett and I got a 3000pt game in between Knights 2.0 and Steel Legion.

viewtopic.php?f=84&t=27089&p=514850#p514850

Some thoughts:

- Disrupt is still a scary problem, even with 4-5 Knights, as you can only soak so many blast markers. (Then again, I DID have two different sources of Disrupt hit a single formation - Manticores and Valkyries, so it's perhaps understandable).

- Losing the use of Lancers' (and a Baron's) power lance in addition to losing shock lances when assaulted is a big nasty drawback. Not having those two 4+ MW attacks on the Baron's dice when his formation got Engaged might have made the difference in one assault. I'd like to see the Power Lance and Shock Lance effects split out on the Lancer and Baron into separate abilities, and the Power Lance kept as an EA +1 MW FF attack. As it stands, I'd probably model my Baron with a power fist and skip Lancers for more Paladins/Errants, even with the 5cm movement advantage.

- Crossfire is a HUGE threat to the Knights, especially when you're using a handful of large formations to avoid easy suppress & break from a 3-knight formation. When your line of battle pivots to engage, whatever's on the end of the line is going to get crushed by the combined loss of the 4+ knight shield and the -1 to armor saves (6+ Reinforced Armor doesn't stop much at all).

- Lucky rolls on the Knight Shield can hold Titan Killer at bay, but I suspect I was much luckier with my dice rolls against the Shadowsword Company than I had any right to be.

- If the Knights can get the assault, it's usually crushingly imbalanced in their favor (I'm sure this is a shock to nobody)... but if you can assault the Knights, it's a MUCH more balanced fight and they're significantly more likely to lose, especially if you got any sort of preparation in on them in advance, so it's probably reasonably balanced considering the difference in numbers of activations (charge them before they charge you).

- Crusaders/Castellans are pretty powerful, even with just 2 BP (and no MW). Formations larger than 3 might be an issue... but formations of just three aren't too hard to deal with using aircraft or artillery (speaking from past experience). My squadron was so effective only because captPiett focused on low-handing fruit with his Thunderbolts, and because my 'bolts succeeded in their Turn One suicide mission to weaken the Manticores.

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 Post subject: Re: Knight World 2.0
PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 9:44 pm 
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To clarify, a Baron get's two dice at 4+ (no MW) when assaulted. And get's 2 dice at 4+ and an extra attack, FS, MW when assaulting. Lancers the same, but at 5+ instead. Is that how you were playing it?

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 Post subject: Re: Knight World 2.0
PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 4:10 am 
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Armiger84 wrote:
- Crossfire is a HUGE threat to the Knights, especially when you're using a handful of large formations to avoid easy suppress & break from a 3-knight formation. When your line of battle pivots to engage, whatever's on the end of the line is going to get crushed by the combined loss of the 4+ knight shield and the -1 to armor saves (6+ Reinforced Armor doesn't stop much at all).

I found the same thing the hard way when I played Dave a few weeks ago.

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 Post subject: Re: Knight World 2.0
PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 7:49 pm 
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Dave wrote:
To clarify, a Baron get's two dice at 4+ (no MW) when assaulted. And get's 2 dice at 4+ and an extra attack, FS, MW when assaulting. Lancers the same, but at 5+ instead. Is that how you were playing it?


I misread that in the list then, although it didn't actually affect gameplay. Baron got charged, so he had his 2 normal attacks from DC 2, and the lancers never made an engage.

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 Post subject: Re: Knight World 2.0
PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 8:11 pm 
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Warrior of Ultramar wrote:
On the subject of scout on lancers, Won't that be a little unwieldy? As the core rules state a WE has a unit coherency equal to 5cm X it's starting DC. So a baneblade has to only be 15cm from another unit in its formation, not 5cm, like normal. Would scout on Lancers mean they run around 10cm apart (as per the core rules) or 20cm? (as per for scouts?)


I've been thinking about this, but didn't want to incorporate it into yesterday's play test. I'd assume "scout DC 2 war engine" would mean a 20cm unit coherency... Although I'd probably be unlikely to fully utilize it. Sounds scary on paper, but a 40-100cm spacing and ~60-120cm zone of control battle line would destroy your ability to do anything meaningful with those lancers other than die, most likely given how spread out they'd be.

Doing that garrisoned off of an objective means you could wall off half the board or more for Turn One... For all of 2-3 activations max as individual lancers get focused to death.

The other advantage that would offer would be a turn one [most likely unsupported] Engage with 3-6 lancers that would probably crush one formation (the other side's scout screen most likely) before getting supporting fire'd to death from the rest of the opponent's battle line. Sounds cool, but also sounds like an easy way to throw away ~300pts, or likely your BTS if you max out the formation.

Again, probably sounds really nasty on paper, but I'm still unconvinced that it would really do that much damage before getting wiped out unless your opponent somehow seriously misjudged your 30cm engage move and 15cm firefight range.

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 Post subject: Re: Knight World 2.0
PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 10:20 pm 
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Armiger84 wrote:
Warrior of Ultramar wrote:
On the subject of scout on lancers, Won't that be a little unwieldy? As the core rules state a WE has a unit coherency equal to 5cm X it's starting DC. So a baneblade has to only be 15cm from another unit in its formation, not 5cm, like normal. Would scout on Lancers mean they run around 10cm apart (as per the core rules) or 20cm? (as per for scouts?)


I've been thinking about this, but didn't want to incorporate it into yesterday's play test. I'd assume "scout DC 2 war engine" would mean a 20cm unit coherency... Although I'd probably be unlikely to fully utilize it. /quote]
I'd be unlikely to use it fully, too. A formation that spread out is begging to be on the receiving end of a clipping assault. It could, however, be very advantageous in claiming more than one objective.

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 Post subject: Re: Knight World 2.0
PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2014 1:05 am 
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I'd assume it be 20cm as, with it being a special rule, it would override the normal coherency (ie 5cm per DC).

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 Post subject: Re: Knight World 2.0
PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 9:17 am 
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I played yesterday a battle against Black Legion.
I had 2 formations of 5 Errants with seneshall, 4 Crusader with seneshall, 5 Lancers with Baron, 3 Paladins, 2 formation of sentinels, 1 AA Formation and Marauder Bomber. He had 3 Decimator, 1 Reaver, 1 Warhound, 5 Pradator and 3 formations of Chaos Marines.
He quit after second round after loosing 2 Marine formation and one cecimator due to assaults from Errants and lancers, 1 Decimator and the Reaver. I lost 1 Formation of Errants (seneshall still lived) and 1 sentinel formation.
The Reaver exploded after getting 1 point of damage.. I rolled the 6 and he the 1.. ;-)

Against his list the knights worked pretty well. Theiy was ne long range shooting, so he had to come to me. I won the strategy roll at 2nd turn with 3 formation of errants and lancers in range for close assaults.

We discussed after the game and he complained that the knights have to much special rules making them better like the knights Shield, bravery etc. At the other point against a shooty list the Knight will loose fighting power very fast.
We talked about to reduce the knights shield to a 4+ inv. save with no RA at all.

I will fight next week against a steel legion.. maybe we will find the weakspots of the knights list.

regards,
Duke


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 Post subject: Re: Knight World 2.0
PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 12:24 pm 
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what list versions did you use? and how many points?

as decimators are in the war engine allowance, the black legion player had 1600 points of war engines....

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 Post subject: Re: Knight World 2.0
PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 5:56 pm 
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we played 3000 points each. I used the last knights list and he the "old" BL list from the latest compendium. In this list decimators counted not against the WE limit.


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 Post subject: Re: Knight World 2.0
PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 1:49 am 
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In the Knight world 2.0 list, in a unit of 3+ wardens, Do all the wardens have to armed identically or can I mix weapon types? It doesn't state it anywhere...

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 Post subject: Re: Knight World 2.0
PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 9:56 am 
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I assumed you could mix weapon types. Same as you can mix other types of knights in a formation.

I personally haven't found a lot of use for the warden variants other than the AA one, the others seem too expensive when compared with other options.


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