Tactical Command :: View topic - Scouting Robots instead of Sentinels?

the greater cost (150 for 4 compared to 100 for 4) would slightly cut down on the activation numbers, which really should be lower than normal in a Titan Legion army

the extra 50 points on robots could serve to drop them even more or force more use of free weapons in battle titans to compensate.

I'd argue that at this point, titan activations are almost TOO low. I think they average between 6 and 8 and it's pretty common for only 5 or 6 of that to be on the ground. That doesn't read as titan legions need even FEWER activations to me.

I'm surprised people had a problem with changing to scout robots, I may have missed or forgotten the thread, what were their reasons?

Well yes, this would be the point. It would limit and tone down the list and make it more balanced and fun to play.

I'm really not convinced....

Personally I think 7 ground activations is about the minimum you need to be competitive.

Why not post there and ask for lists, more details and feedback of the games?

All three of the TL armies have 4-5 activations and there must be tactics that can be used to win with such small numbers that you're just not seeing.

Author:	GlynG [ Sun Jan 19, 2014 11:16 pm ]
Post subject:	Scouting Robots instead of Sentinels?
One last change I want to suggest, for the Titan Legion list before it gets pushed for approval - remove Sentinels, and replace with Crusader Robots (the robots the Skitiarii uses as a scout unit) instead. The Sentinel was only added in as a stop gap, as the AM lists needed some kind of scout formation. It's an Imperial Guard walker and there's been nothing ever in the background suggesting the AM use Sentinels or that they would be found found fighting with Titan Legions. Robots on the hand are very fitting and known to accompany them and since they are the scout unit in the Skitiarii list already it would be sensible and consistent to have them in the Titan Legion list too. Scouting robots would be similar and as easy to kill (not a significant change for playtesting) but much more fitting with the feel of the army and the greater cost (150 for 4 compared to 100 for 4) would slightly cut down on the activation numbers, which really should be lower than normal in a Titan Legion army to be a downside against it's many good sides (making it more balanced and enjoyable to play). For what it's worth Epic-UK also chose to go for robots not Sentinels in their Titan Legion list.

Author:	mordoten [ Sun Jan 19, 2014 11:20 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Scouting Robots instead of Sentinels?
I asked for this a month ago but Vaaish said that the community didn't want that change when it came up a while ago.

Author:	Vaaish [ Mon Jan 20, 2014 12:16 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Scouting Robots instead of Sentinels?
I would like to see robots replace sentinels, but at this point let's leave the sentinels. I brought it up last year, I think, and it met with pretty stiff resistance. Quote: the greater cost (150 for 4 compared to 100 for 4) would slightly cut down on the activation numbers, which really should be lower than normal in a Titan Legion army While titans should have lower than average activation counts, they already do and the extra 50 points on robots could serve to drop them even more or force more use of free weapons in battle titans to compensate. I'd argue that at this point, titan activations are almost TOO low. I think they average between 6 and 8 and it's pretty common for only 5 or 6 of that to be on the ground. That doesn't read as titan legions need even FEWER activations to me. Personally I think 7 ground activations is about the minimum you need to be competitive.

Author:	wargame_insomniac [ Mon Jan 20, 2014 8:31 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Scouting Robots instead of Sentinels?
Robots would be cool. Would be nice to see them in AMTL list at some point. Wouldn't want anything to hold back AMTL belatedly getting Approved status. Maybe can use robot models with Sentinel stats as make do?

Author:	jimmyzimms [ Mon Jan 20, 2014 8:41 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Scouting Robots instead of Sentinels?
Wargame_insomniac beat me to it. Exactly what I was going to suggest as well.

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Author:	mordoten [ Mon Jan 20, 2014 8:43 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Scouting Robots instead of Sentinels?
Thats what i do!

Author:	GlynG [ Tue Jan 21, 2014 1:18 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Scouting Robots instead of Sentinels?
I'm surprised people had a problem with changing to scout robots, I may have missed or forgotten the thread, what were their reasons? Vaaish wrote: the extra 50 points on robots could serve to drop them even more or force more use of free weapons in battle titans to compensate. Well yes, this would be the point. It would limit and tone down the list and make it more balanced and fun to play. Quote: I'd argue that at this point, titan activations are almost TOO low. I think they average between 6 and 8 and it's pretty common for only 5 or 6 of that to be on the ground. That doesn't read as titan legions need even FEWER activations to me. I'm really not convinced. The Epic-UK Titan list has higher costings on many units and presumably does ok? They have 850 Warlords (with the requirement you must take 1 Warlord and 1 other battle titan at 3k), 650 Reavers, 300 Warhounds and 200 point robots. Plus a maximum of 3 aircraft/spacecraft formations at 3k. In their list you could only get a maximum of 9 formations at 3k (strictly speaking 10 if you were to take only 2 titans and 4 robot formations but given their robots have a special rule preventing them from using the advance, double or march orders no-one would ever take that) and almost certainly a lower average number of formations and WE DC than under the Net-EA list. The current Net-EA list allows a number of competitive lists involving taking lots of titans and 12 activations, which makes the list too good and takes away what should be a balancing downside for the army. For example these 12 activation 3k lists: Reaver, 3 free weapons, Carapace Multi Lasers (BTS) 625 Reaver, 3 free weapons, 575 Warhound, VMB, PB 275 Warhound, VMB, PB 275 Warhound, VMB, PB 275 Warhound, VMB, PB 275 Sentinels 100 Sentinels 100 Sentinels 100 Sentinels 100 Thunderbolts 150 Thunderbolts 150 Reaver, 2 Corvus, Laser Burner, Carapace Multi Lasers (BTS) 625 Reaver, 2 Corvus, Laser Burner 575 Warhound, VMB, PB 275 Warhound, VMB, PB 275 Warhound, VMB, PB 275 Warhound, VMB, PB 275 Skitiarii Demi-Century 100 Skitiarii Demi-Century 100 Skitiarii Demi-Century 100 Skitiarii Demi-Century 100 Thunderbolts 150 Ark Mechanicus 150 Switching to 150 scouts would be a small but wise step in the right direction IMO

Author:	Vaaish [ Tue Jan 21, 2014 1:51 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Scouting Robots instead of Sentinels?
Quote: I'm surprised people had a problem with changing to scout robots, I may have missed or forgotten the thread, what were their reasons? Basically the list is close to approved, don't swap out the formation and a lot of people have them already and didn't like them being invalidated. Quote: Well yes, this would be the point. It would limit and tone down the list and make it more balanced and fun to play. You misunderstand me. It wouldn't tone down the list, it would just mean people focus more on free weapons and cheap battle titans so they could make up the extra 50-100 points on the robots. Quote: I'm really not convinced.... The lists you've posted seem much like popcorn lists and don't represent the lists we've seen over the last several years. The Sentinel one I believe was brought up a long time ago by TRC and eventually dismissed because it wasn't very durable. More concerning is the Skitarii based one, but for different reasons. Changing the sentinels isn't the way to go.

Author:	GlynG [ Fri Jan 24, 2014 8:36 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Scouting Robots instead of Sentinels?
Vaaish wrote: Personally I think 7 ground activations is about the minimum you need to be competitive. Just getting back to this, there appear to have been two War Gryphons Titan Legion armies used at the recent Winter Warmer tournament in the UK, both look to have taken only 5 activations, with just 4 on the ground. The one with the Imperator (and a Warlord using a 40k chaos dreadnought model) apparently came 3rd place out of 20 players. Illustrating my suggestion that a TL list can get away with less activations and still be competitive. Vaaish - it could be worth you asking in the tournament thread for the exact lists and feedback from those who played with and against them? Edited to add: correction, there's a third TL army as well, this one with only 4 activations, 3 on the ground. The 3rd place TL army was definitely a War Gryphons one (the Epic-UK titan list doesn't include the Imperator) and there was then one other War Gryphons list and one Epic-UK TL list but I'm not sure which is which.

Author:	Vaaish [ Fri Jan 24, 2014 11:09 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Scouting Robots instead of Sentinels?
The Imperator list is probably AMTL, but I thought they used the eUK list for everything. It would also help to know what it faced too. Have to see battle reports to know what happened really. Different groups play differently. I'd wager that on average you'd find a 4 or 5 activations titan army hard pressed to win. Just too much stuff against them and not enough firepower to crack it. End result is that a savvy player should be able to easily contest any objective the titans have and the game goes to points. One titan simply can't reliably lock down an objective in the middle of the board.

Author:	GlynG [ Sat Jan 25, 2014 12:41 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Scouting Robots instead of Sentinels?
Man of Kent's Winter Warmer tournament has always allowed both Epic-UK and Net-EA lists to be used. The list with the Imperator that came 3rd is definitely your list. One of the other titan armies are said to be your list, the other the Epic-UK titan list, I just don't know which is which. Something is obviously going right for it, despite the activations, for the Imperator list to come third. All three of the TL armies have 4-5 activations and there must be tactics that can be used to win with such small numbers that you're just not seeing. There's a report up of the final Imperator game in the thread. Why not post there and ask for lists, more details and feedback of the games?

Author:	Reedar [ Sat Jan 25, 2014 1:13 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Scouting Robots instead of Sentinels?
The ' blue titans' list belongs to RichardL, and AFAIK is from the EUK list. He ran it at the GT last year and tweaked the list for WW. (Dropping the warhounds for a third reaver IIRC) Cheers Reedar

Author:	GlynG [ Sat Jan 25, 2014 1:51 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Scouting Robots instead of Sentinels?
Thanks Reedar! Looking at the results he did well do, coming 5th out 20.

Author:	Vaaish [ Sat Jan 25, 2014 3:23 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Scouting Robots instead of Sentinels?
Quote: Why not post there and ask for lists, more details and feedback of the games? Haven't gotten to it yet. Quote: All three of the TL armies have 4-5 activations and there must be tactics that can be used to win with such small numbers that you're just not seeing. That's always possible; could just be the metagame though too. Where did the 3 warlord +marauders list place? The summary against eldar wen't about as expected, though. By the end of the game, it looks like the Imperator was all that was left. Pushing to turn 4 might have seen nothing left of the Titan list. I'd expect that under most circumstances, the Imperator and Warlord would be the only remaining activations which doesn't leave you enough formations on the ground to get anything objective wise except perhaps BTS if you can target the formation.

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Author:	GlynG [ Sat Jan 25, 2014 4:15 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Scouting Robots instead of Sentinels?
I'll be curious to see what they say. To rank 3rd after loosing their last game the Imperator list must have won the previous two games though and the blue and yellow titan list did well too. Looking through the thread I've worked out the 3 Warlord list came 14th out of 20.