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Brainstorming on the Cataphractii (Skitarii Tank) list
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Author:  Vaaish [ Mon Sep 02, 2013 8:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Brainstorming on the Cataphractii (Skitarii Tank) list
Some of this will be taken from the Armored Skitarii list that Ben posted some time ago but modified to fit the format better and split into core and support choice.

Cataphractii Core Choices
Leman Russ Maniple: 5x russ Vanquishers OR 5x Executioners 400
Valdor Maniple: 5x Valdor Tank Hunters 475

Cataphractii Heavy Choices (1 per core choice)
Macharius Cohort: Two Macharius Heavy Tanks and One Macharius Vulcan or Vanquisher 350
Super Heavy Cohort: Three Baneblades, Stormblades, or Shadowswords in any combination 500

Cataphractii Support Choices (2 per core choice)
Artillery Maniple: 5x manticores 375
Avenger Fighters: 2x Avenger Strike Fighters 225
Tetrarch Heavy Lander: 1x Tetrarch Heavy Lander 450
0–1 Orbital Support: One Mechanicus Gothic Class Cruiser or One Ark Mechanicus 150

Cataphractii Core Upgrades (select up to 3 DIFFERENT upgrades):
0–1 Legate: One Legate Character Upgrade 50
Super Heavy Tank: One Baneblade, Stormblade, or Shadowsword 175
Russ Cohort: add three Leman Russ Executioners or three Vanquishers 175
Flak: Add 1-2 Hydras 50/each


Cataphractii Allies (33%)
Skitarii Support: Select one core formation from the Skitarii list. (Any weapons and upgrades except Magos may be taken.)
Collegia Titanica Support: Select one Scout or Battle Titan formation from the War Griffons list. (Any weapons and upgrades except Legate may be taken. God Machines is not used.)

Blessings of the Omnissiah
The Adeptus Mechanicus assigns tech priests to safeguard and augment the machine spirit of their armored vehicles in the field. At the start of each game you are granted one tech priest per 500 points which may be assigned to any Cataphractii AV or WE formation. Allied formations may not be assigned tech priests. Select one option from the list below; this applies to all tech priests in your army.

Aegis Mechanicum: Free
The unit the Tech Priest is assigned gains the Leader rule and all units in this formation gain Invulnerable Save.

Augmented Targeting Cogitators: 125 points
The unit the Tech Priest is assigned gains Inspiring and Sniper. All units in this formation gain +1 Extra Attacks (15cm).

EDIT:
Changed superheavy tank upgrade price to 175
Added Vanquishers to the Russ Cohort upgrade
Change skitarii allies to only core choices.

EDIT2:
Added Devourer Dropship

EDIT3:
Reduced Devourer to 300 points


EDIT4:
Replaced Devourer with Tetrarch Heavy Lander, Points at 450 based on possible armament similar to the OOP Dropship loadout.

EDIT5:
Added blessings tentative rules

EDIT6:
Updated Blessings rule based on discussion.

EDIT7:
Russ Maniple reduced to 400 points
Valdor Maniple increased to 475 points

DISCUSSION:
Addition of Conqueror maniple to replace crusader maniple
Tetrarch stats
Formation Pricing
Author:  Vaaish [ Mon Sep 02, 2013 8:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Brainstorming on the Cataphractii list
This is all pretty rough but its a start. I'd like to see more upgrade options and maybe experiment with the core choices a bit more. Once this is nailed down I'll replace the cataphractii macharius support allies in the skitarii list with the option to select one formation from the catphractii core and heavy choices.

For reference, here are the Valdor stats:
Valdor:
AV 15cm Armor: 4+ CC: 6+ FF: 5+ Notes: Reinforced Armour
Lascannon 45cm AT5+
Neutron Laser Projector 60cm MW3+, Disrupt

They are usually units of 3 valdors for 250 points, for 5 I'm thinking between 400 and 500 points

You will notice the lack of any infantry formations in this list. The reason for this is the integration of the Skitarii list under the allies section. Using allies you'll be able to pull in the Skitarii Demi-century, Sagitarii, Minorus company, and majoris if you wish.

Combined with the eventual integration of this list in the skitarii list it should allow players freedom to have skitarii centered lists with tank and titan support or tank centric lists with skitarii and titan support.


Tentative Devourer stats:

Type: WE, Aircraft
Speed: Bomber
Armor: 5+
CC: 6+
FF: 4+

4x Autocannon: 30cm AP5+/AT6+
2x Twin Lascannon: 30cm AT4+
1x Twin Heavy Bolter: 15cm AA5+
1x Demolisher Cannon: 30cm AP3+/AT4+ Ignores Cover, Forward Arc

Notes: 3DC, 2x Void Shields, Reinforced Armor, Planetfall. Transport: May carry up to 5x AV or War Engines and 10x Infantry or LV. War engines take up one space per DC. No Titans may be transported.

Critical: the Tetrach's structure collapses and the craft is destroyed along with any units it is carrying.

Ok. Concerns with using the Apoc launcher is a flying bomber that can pelt away from a good distance out each turn. We may need to think of an alternative like the Thunderbolt underwing rockets or something else. I've given it worse armor and dropped a DC on the craft to give it two Void Shields like we did with the Minorus. I'm not sure a flying war engine with void shields is an entirely amazing idea, but I'm still floating it since I think it would be kind of cool.
Author:  Blip [ Tue Sep 03, 2013 7:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Brainstorming on the Cataphractii (Skitarii Tank) list
Looking forward to this list...
Author:  Vaaish [ Tue Sep 03, 2013 7:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Brainstorming on the Cataphractii (Skitarii Tank) list
Don't just look forward to it! If you have any thoughts, now is the time to speak up. :)
Author:  Blip [ Tue Sep 03, 2013 8:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Brainstorming on the Cataphractii (Skitarii Tank) list
Ha!

Well i haven't read any of the BL books so i'm not one best placed to come up with "canon" suggestions.

Personally i just want to play a list which is full of big stompy robots, tanks and a greater than normal amount of titans.

I had been thinking of running my Ad'mech (if i ever get them painted) as a "counts as" Iron Warriors - though this would skew it more HtH than i would envisage. Therefore similar to IW (lots of knights/robots/praetorian infantry with specialist/unusual tank support) but with less jump packs and more small Ordinatus would be my vision of a Ad'mech list.
Author:  Vaaish [ Tue Sep 03, 2013 8:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Brainstorming on the Cataphractii (Skitarii Tank) list
Once I get this far enough along to tie into the main skitarii list you should be able to pull that off. At 3k you wouldn't see an abnormal amount of titan support but it's enough points to drop in a couple of super heavy formations or pull in the russ and valdors.

Going the other way around you could probably snag a couple of skitarii demi-centuries and a minorus company in a primarily tank list or take the sagitarii with rapiers and transport minorus.

I'm hoping that this will satisfy most of the variety people want in fielding their forces and still let folks have "pure" forces. Of course AMTL loses out since it doesn't get allies but there are some skitarii in there for flavor :)
Author:  Blip [ Tue Sep 03, 2013 8:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Brainstorming on the Cataphractii (Skitarii Tank) list
Regarding titans [and this may be due to inexperience - and i haven't yet played with Ad'mech either] but we find (apart from warhounds) titans seem a bit of a liability in imperial armies (based on IG and SMs.) I think we would like the chance to play with two or three battle titans in a 3k game but without having to go all out War Griffons -Likewise, some knights, but not all out knights all the time. i guess that's a viable army with about 50%ish titans?

That's enough wish listing it from me. I'll leave it to the experts ;)
Author:  Vaaish [ Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Brainstorming on the Cataphractii (Skitarii Tank) list
Assuming you don't load out on cheap reavers with free weapons, you are looking at nearly 2/3 of your points to take three battle titans in a 3k game. You can probably get two reavers into a 4k list though.
Author:  Spectrar Ghost [ Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Brainstorming on the Cataphractii (Skitarii Tank) list
Why Valdors? They're obsolete, and the Mechanicus doesn't need obsolete tanks.

I also see no need to split the support choices, and feel 4 total support choices per core choice is probably too many. I'd move the Superheavy Cohort to Core and leave the rest in Support.

Some of your costings seem a bit off too. Three manticores are 250. They generate two templates and two Blast markers before disrupt. Five generate three templates and three blast markers. You also get two two template shots if you split them over two turns. I'd cost them at 375 minimum, probably 400. Three Executioners would cost about 200 using the Minervan costs as a baseline.

Is there a reason the Avenger is the only Aircraft in the list? Having a dedicated interceptor would make sense, unless there's a reason I'm not aware of.

Edit: This reads harsher than I intended. This was a train of thought post, that's all.
Author:  Vaaish [ Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Brainstorming on the Cataphractii (Skitarii Tank) list
Thanks for posting!

I added Valdors because they have the Neutron Laser Projector which is thought to be a relic of the Dark Age of Technology. It's a weapon that is highly sophisticated and many forgworlds now lack the capabilities to produce it at all. It's also a weapon system know to be deployed by the AdMech as far back as the Horus Heresy. Those Valdors that are outside of the AdMech are treated like treasured relics. I'm taking this directly from the information in IA VII. There is nothing that even remotely sounds like obsolete in there. Where are you taking that from?

They provide an interesting alternative unit to the Russ that isn't fielded much by the Imperium due to the difficulty in production.

I've been thinking about just combining the core and heavy sections but I'm not convinced I want that many options for core nor do I want the super heavies as core. I split them up so people have to take at least some AV units rather than letting them field an entire force of war engines. Basically, AV is core, WE is heavy, and then support formations get added in.

I've also been wavering back and forth on the support numbers. I had 2 heavy and one support per core earlier but decided that would likely result in just taking Avengers so I added an extra slot to get more variety. I've also thought about dropping the heavy to one per core option but I'm not sold on that either so I've left them at two each for now.

Costings:
Manticores. I can bump them up to 375, but I think any higher will ensure they are never taken. That was the intent behind 350.

Executioners, your right. The math made perfect sense this morning for 250 points!


The avenger is the only aircraft that is known to be used primarily by the AdMech. Things that are different than other imperial armies are hard to come by and since I'm using the Avenger in the Skitarii list in lieu of the Thunderbolt, I followed this through in the tank list. It just adds a different feel than using the Thunderbolt and Marauder like every other Imperial List.
Author:  Spectrar Ghost [ Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Brainstorming on the Cataphractii (Skitarii Tank) list
Re: Valdor - I had assumed that since Malcadors were obsolete that Valdors were as well.

If you decide to retain the split support structure, I would recommend 1 Heavy and 2 Support.

I'd think 375 is a good start for the Manties. We can adjust it from there if need be.
Author:  Vaaish [ Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Brainstorming on the Cataphractii (Skitarii Tank) list
Yeah, same chassis but completely different weapons. Valdor != Malcador.

I think I'm going to keep the split structure for the time being, but I've updated things with your suggestions.
Author:  Vaaish [ Wed Sep 04, 2013 12:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Brainstorming on the Cataphractii (Skitarii Tank) list
Quote:
Shouldn't perhaps the cataphractii allies be mandatorily mechanized, to reflect the nature of the list?


Not really. The cataphractii would support unmounted skitarii. Mounting Skitarii is also a very costly option. I think it best to leave it up to the player.

Quote:
Cosmetically, I think Superheavy company-sized formations should be refered to as maniples and platoon sized-ones should be refered to as cohorts, in keeping with other formations.


This is based on how we've been doing the skitarii as well as how FW is setting up the mechanicum stuff. I don't see this needing a change for the superheavies since they come in detachments of three units. It basically follows the pattern here:

Cohort: 3 units
Maniple: 5 units
Demi-Century: 10 units

Quote:
Regarding the heavy/core thing, I'd probably move the heavies to the core and restrict them to one for every non-heavy core choice.


Isn't this the exact same thing I have now, just we have to add a line (0-1 per AV selection) to the superheavy core entries? I think it's easier to understand this way.
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