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Legio Destructor 1.01
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=21578		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Mon Oct 17, 2011 11:04 am ]
Post subject:  Legio Destructor 1.01
Based on playtest reports, as well as a playtest game of my own, I've added the following changes to the Legio Destructor list:

- Split Support Formations into Support Formations and Airspace Formations (To get a few more activations into the army without putting too many more boots on the ground)

- Changed CCW's from 25pts to free.

- Changed Support Missiles from 75pts to 50pts.

- Changed Melta Cannons from 50pts to 25pts.

- Changed Quake Cannon from 75pts to 50pts.

- Changed Plasma Destructor from 75pts to 50pts.

- Changed Sacred Icon from 50pts to 25pts.

Attachments:
Legio Destructor.pdf [47.75 KiB]
Downloaded 484 times
Author:  MikeT [ Mon Oct 17, 2011 11:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Legio Destructor 1.01
You've also restricted the quake cannon (and plasma destructor) to Warlord only?
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Mon Oct 17, 2011 11:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Legio Destructor 1.01
Yup.

These are all changes for the Legio Destructor list. The War Gryphonnes list will remain unaffected unless there's a demand by the community for any of them to be copied.
Author:  Jstr19 [ Mon Oct 17, 2011 5:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Legio Destructor 1.01
The list still needs some incentive to playing for a win on objectives. It is still much too easy to design a list aimed at a turn 4 draw fairly safe in the knowledge that you will probably win on points. To balance this I also think the list needs some help making winning on objectives a little bit easier. The AMTL appear to be very hard to beat if played well but they also seem to be very hard to win with.

My experience against this and similar lists is that you are unlikely to kill more than 2 titans or titan groups (1 if you go for the BTS) in the corse of a 3 turn game. You are unlikely to win a straight up fight so the best strategy seems to be attempting to force the titans to move from the objective corridor and reducing its activation count.

Some points from our game on Saturday:

1) No offence mate but I'm sure you'd agree your Titans could have been better specialized.
2) You were unlucky with activation rolls, one of which cost you the game.
3) You were playing against a list that took advantage of the weaknesses of the AMTL. Lots of aircraft and better than average AT fire.
4) You did not really kill that many of my formations (3 out of 13, Crisis, 1x FW and 1x Recon) but still would have managed a minor win on points.

Despite being 1cm from a 2-0 turn 3 win I was lucky to win that game. It seemed destined for a turn 4 draw which you would have won. I can't see how you could have beaten me (I had too many activations to deal with) and I'm not sure how I could have beaten you (baring bad luck).
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Mon Oct 17, 2011 5:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Legio Destructor 1.01
Quote:
Despite being 1cm from a 2-0 turn 3 win I was lucky to win that game.

It seemed destined for a turn 4 draw which you would have won. I can't see how you could have beaten me (I had too many activations to deal with) and I'm not sure how I could have beaten you (baring bad luck).



I'm not so sure. If you hadn't have lost one of your AX-1-0's due to bad angling (Sending it over my CML Warlord at the end of the turn) you would have had 3-4 turns of AX-1-0 strafing instead of just two. That would have changed things significantly. You also screwed up in placing one of your Fire Warrior formations in engagement range of a Reaver, and left your broadsides in the open at the end of a turn for some reason so a Reaver ate them too. :)

Being 1cm away from a win on turn 3 was unlucky on your part, as was failing a roll to draw the game for me on turn 4.

Both of the current proposed rules on objectives (45cm, or Titans may only claim one objective at a time) would not have affected the game's outcome, and nor would 100pts per DC lost as you only damaged two titans (A reaver and a warhound) and those you killed outright. 8)
Author:  Jstr19 [ Mon Oct 17, 2011 6:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Legio Destructor 1.01
To be fair the broadsides shot the Reaver and missed then the Ax-1-0's only did 3 points. The aircraft positioning and FW's was sheer laziness.

I still feel the list has serious issues which can lead to some very tedious games. It in no way shape or form is encouraged to play for a win. Wins on objectives appear very hard to come by. The list forces your opponent to try and force a win and that is not easy to achieve against the AMTL.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Mon Oct 17, 2011 6:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Legio Destructor 1.01
Aye it still has problems of the "play for a draw" style. Perhaps AMTL should simply auto-lose draws lol.
Author:  Simulated Knave [ Mon Oct 17, 2011 6:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Legio Destructor 1.01
You've got about nineteen proposals for how to make draws bite an AMTL player. Why not look at how the game went, apply the different proposals, and see how each one would have changed the result?

That seems to be a lot of points reductions - are they really necessary?
Author:  Jstr19 [ Mon Oct 17, 2011 7:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Legio Destructor 1.01
The problem isn't just that AMTL win the vast majority of turn 4 draws. It's also IMHO drawing appears to be the best way to win. If your opponent knows what to expect from the AMTL and doesn't come charging at you it is very hard to win on objectives with an AMTL list.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Legio Destructor 1.01
Simulated Knave wrote:
You've got about nineteen proposals for how to make draws bite an AMTL player. Why not look at how the game went, apply the different proposals, and see how each one would have changed the result?

I did apply them. All of them.

Nothing changed, the game's result was unaffected.

I'm thinking of simply introducing a blanket ban: AMTL armies count all winning draws on VP's in the tournament scenario as flat draws.


Quote:
That seems to be a lot of points reductions - are they really necessary?

In this more restricted army list structure, yes.
Author:  Angel_of_Caliban [ Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Legio Destructor 1.01
Evil and Chaos wrote:
I'm thinking of simply introducing a blanket ban: AMTL armies count all winning draws on VP's in the tournament scenario as flat draws.

If this would to happen would you consider AMTL "Balanced" and use it as the main list in the supplement?

If not, then I think we should just dropped the whole idea together as most(it seems)people don't have a issue with Draws that you seem to have in your circle of gamers.
Author:  Steve54 [ Thu Oct 20, 2011 10:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Legio Destructor 1.01
AoC - how's this for a situation, you turn up at a tournament with a blind list and play 3 amtl armies. If the titan players play to suit their list the best you can achieve is 3 draws. Is that fun spending a day playing to try and get a draw 3 times against amtl? Will you come back?
Author:  Angel_of_Caliban [ Thu Oct 20, 2011 10:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Legio Destructor 1.01
Steve54 wrote:
AoC - how's this for a situation, you turn up at a tournament with a blind list and play 3 amtl armies. If the titan players play to suit their list the best you can achieve is 3 draws. Is that fun spending a day playing to try and get a draw 3 times against amtl? Will you come back?

1. Why would a Tournament Organizer allow that?
2. I consider most Epic games fun if I win or lose.
3. I would come again because chances are I won't play three AMTL again and if there was a chance I'd bring a Anti-WE list.

But really most other people across the Globe has not ran across that issue. Hell I don't think there has even been a Tournament with 3 AMTL lists. I hear that other AMTL play to win even if they could play cheesy and take a draw. I find most Epic players are usually mature enough to not take a Cheese list and tactics.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Thu Oct 20, 2011 10:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Legio Destructor 1.01
Angel_of_Caliban wrote:
Evil and Chaos wrote:
I'm thinking of simply introducing a blanket ban: AMTL armies count all winning draws on VP's in the tournament scenario as flat draws.

[color=#00FF00...I think we should just dropped the whole idea together as most(it seems)people don't have a issue with Draws that you seem to have in your circle of gamers.[/color]

It's not just my circle of gamers.

Furthermore, if there's community resistance to implementing a rule to fix this issue in the War Gryphonnes list, then that list can stay as it is without a rule dis-incentivising playing for a draw. But I fully intend to address this issue in the Legio Destructor list.

My current proposal (Count all winning draws and flat draws) would incentivise the AMTL player to play for a win on the standard 5 Objectives, with the knowlege that they can never progress up the tournament ladder just by standing a Warlord Titan on an objective marker in the opponent's table half whilst contesting their own blitz with other units.
Author:  Angel_of_Caliban [ Thu Oct 20, 2011 10:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Legio Destructor 1.01
Not sure you answered the question mate. ::)

IMO this rule won't effect me and I don't really think its needed, however if it was adapted to the AMTL WG list and that made it "good enough" in your opinion to be "the list" in the supplement then I'll go with it. ;)
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