I have a couple of suggestions for the AM lists, where I feel all the proposed lists lack in, so I’m sticking up separate threads to discuss them. They apply equally to all the proposed lists, so could be discussed independently regardless of who manages the list from here.

In most ways I think the Skitiarii Hypaspists are as they should be as compared to IG – smaller formation, armour and CC 5+ and a heavy weapon per stand rather than 1 in 2. From the background and novels it is clear that Skitiarii are some of the best equipped and armed troopers in the galaxy, yet the present stats don’t reflect this very well.

If the SM weapons and IG weapons get translated to an average effect of 45cm AP5+/AT6+ why the heck do the Hypaspists only get a measly 30cm AP5+ Heavy Bolter? It’s not good enough to do justice to them at all and why should Skitiarii infantry not be able to shoot vehicles?? They are known to use Plasma Cannons, Mult-Meltas and more arcane weapons such as Conversion Beamers so their averaged epic ability having a decent AT seems reasonable and could be balanced by them conversely having a shorter range.

If they are to be boosted, then in what manner could be discussed, but I propose changing the Hypaspists weapon to be 30cm AP5+/AT5+, with the points bumped up accordingly. They become more flexible and powerfull against vehicles, but more elite and costly overall – all seeming appropriate to me – and further differentiated from IG infantry. I also think the Tech Priest stand should have something better than a Heavy Bolter too, either the same as the infantry or actual Conversion Beamers.

30cm ap5+/At5+ is currently what the sagitarii formations are armed with. If you want to run with upgunned squads, that would be the place to do it. We also changed the tech priest to a Secutor and gave them two multi-meltas.

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-Vaaish

I realise there is an option for a shootier infantry with 2 shots of this sort. I'd want them to stay as well, but I'm proposing changing the heavy weapon the basic infantry are armed with to match, as AP5+ is inappropriately poor.

SM Devestators are armed with the same guns as Tacticals. IG Fire Support are armed with the same guns as regular IG. In both cases they just have more of the same sort of gun and that would be best here too.

I'm not opposed to looking into alternatives. Part of the issue lies with 45cm ap5/at6 being some of the best stats you can get within the imperial lists for infantry weapons which leaves very little in the way of "better" alternatives to show the skitarii having better equipment. There are some interesting ideas revolving around plasma weapons, but that's how we ended up with the stats for the sagitarii. They were originally armed with plasma cannons and had the slow fire rule. We move to the alternative minervan stats which seemed to work well, but I don't think the were approved yet so we just renamed the weapon to assault cannon until a better alternative can be found.

I don't agree with you about making the demi-century more expensive though. My feeling is they are still a little overpriced as is.

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-Vaaish

In our experience, the Skitarii is indeed a bit underwhelming.

I like the current stats, though. They sit comfortably between regular guard and Space Marines.

In the Stenberg list development, we're reducing the price of a Demi-Century to 225 points; This is slightly more expensive than a Steel Legion company which in most respects outclasses it (with greater numbers and a commissar, they start at +2 combat res in engagements). We'd rather see larger number of Skitarii than turning them into an elite formation.

That being said, it's an interesting idea to perhaps just give each Skitarii 2x Heavy Bolters, and give the Tech-priest a Multi-melta. It would make them absolutely brutal at short-range anti-infantry shooting, which is a fairly unique niche.

That might indeed be a possibility. I've been considering a price reduction for the demi-century, although 18 ap5+ shots might be a bit much for a cheaper formation. I think a 50 point drop might be a bit much, but maybe reducing them to 250 points. That would help differentiate them a bit from the shooty sagitarii and give you a cheaper alternitive that's a bit more generalist for assaults and offensively.

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-Vaaish

Added firepower would be instead of a price reduction, of course.

250 is still too expensive, though. Steel Legion Infantry companies consistently defeats Skitarii demi-centuries in engagements, especially since they can usually dictate firefight range.

Neither of you have given a good reason why Hypaspists shouldn't be able to effect vehicles with their shooting though. If Ork Boyz or Chaos Cultists can gun down vehicles just as good as most infantry with their ramshackle home-made weapons why would the AM core infantry not be able to affect them at all with their advanced weaponry? They'll likely be equipped with the likes of Multi-Meltas, Lascanons and Conversion Beamers as well as Heavy Bolters, so I don't see why they are averaged with just an AP attack?

I can see the reasoning for Sagitarii being armed as they are and that's fine, I just think having the Hypaspists armed with the same gun as the Sagitarii, but just a single shot instead of two, would make more sense and work fine. Devestators are armed with the same averaged attack in epic as Tacticals after-all, just with twice as many attacks.

If you don't want to go for AT5+ then at least AT6+ should be an absolute minimum IMO. No existing weapon with 30cm AP5+/AT6+? No worries, just call them 'Tech-Weapons' or something. Cultists in the LaTD are just armed with the generically titled 'Heavy Weapons' so there's precedent.


Fair enough, I thought it might be needed as a consequence of boosting their firepower, but if you think them underpowered already it wouldn't be necessary.

See, the thing is just because there might be more arcane weapons available, it doesn't necessarily follow that the skitarii would be armed with them. differing doctrines can affect what weapons are taken. For skitarii, perhaps a more solidify anti infantry posture with the support of the heavy minorus platforms negates the need for infantry bassed AT or perhaps with the Sagitarii in the list, adding AT as a base stat to the demicentury brings the two units roles into conflict.

Regarding different weapons. If you do a quick runthrou of available infantry weapons in epic, you'll notice tha most are ap5 or 6 with twin linking dropping the to hit by 1 point. Even then the variety is rather slim. The marine missile launcher is the same as the Ig auto cannon. The assault cannon is basically the same as the storm trooper plasma guns. My point being that the really isn't a huge pool of weapons once it's boiled down to the stats. For gameplay reasons I would rather see the demicentury left as it is but cheaper to keep them different from the sagitarii

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-Vaaish

I agree with GlynG, from what I've read Skitarii are very formidable and outfitted with the best tech possible. They should at the very least be equal to guard shooting for the basic squad. And then sagitarii could possibly be up'ed to lascannons? And then the Servitors with heavy bolters add an Ap attack to the squad as well (while still being able to add rapiers).

Blind-

Define best tech possible. What exactly is that, lascannons? Plasma Cannons? Missile Launchers? Heavy Bolters? Autocannons? Assault cannons? Multi-Meltas?

That's about the sum total of what we have represented for the Imperium in an infantry level. Even then the choice is relatively academic. Only three of those weapons are 45 cm and two are functionally identical. Which leaves us with basically arming the demi-century with an autocannon or missile launcher and thereby making them roughly the equivalent of a Guard company taking the fire support upgrade. All the weapons with "better" stats are shorter ranged which gives Guard numbers and range.

I think it would be better suited to the skitarii to look at them in a more holistic sense where their armor save and CC value make the units better equipped than IG troops. They are also better equipped with heavy weapons since they sport a HB shot for each stand rather than one autocannon shot per two stands. The difference in capabilities is that guard companies are larger and often take fire support upgrades which double their firepower.

Individually, each hypaspist stand is better equipped that a guard stand and packs more firepower. Were both Skitarii and IG formations equally sized, the skitarii would put out 2x as many AP shots as their guard equivalents. Granted, guard does get the ability to tag AT shots on there which makes them slightly more versitile and has better range, but I don't think it is quite fair to say that those two differences show that Skitarii aren't better equipped. I think that it would be better to see about dropping the cost of the demi-century to 250 points than to either change their weapons or create a completely new weapon.

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-Vaaish

I've offered my suggestions and disagree with your position on it, but you're the AM champ and it's your call.

As to the guns though the Ad-Mech really don't need to be limited to conventional known IG/SM weapons - the battle servitors in Graham McNeil's Horus Heresy short story The Kaban Project are armed with "Quad-barrelled rotary cannons, conversion beamers and energy claws".

I dislike creating non-cannon weapons just to have a different weapon and even then, how much difference would there really be in game terms? I'd wager not a whole lot. I was actually talking with a friend while we were working out this evening about the demi-century and the sagitarii and after bouncing off ideas of what to swap with what, the best case is to give the demi-century the assault cannon and the sagitarii the original slow firing plasma or some other MW weapon.

This just creates gameplay issues with tracking what's fired and what hasn't. So then changing the sagitarii to have 2x lascannons or other dedicated AT weapon per stand and the rapiers as default and perhaps drop the gun servitors which I don't find all that great of an option.

Which all leads back to what are we really gaining through all this? You still won't outgun guard or outnumber them and you've just ripped apart one of the more solidified and tested formations in the list for what's mostly a fluff change. I think the answer lies with a difference in philosophy. While guard have the firepower in autocannons, I think that skitarii place more of the at and heavy firepower in their ordinatus. As such, heavy AT wouldn't be as necessary in the infantry formations since that would likely be the function of the attached ordinatus and would account for the guard "outgunning" the skitarii.

Of course, this brings up the issue of cost and I've previously mentioned dropping the cost of the demi-century, but I'm also thinking that a drop in cost for the Chimedons might also be in order. The loss of the second transport slot makes them exceptionally expensive to transport a demi-century and although you do gain the benefit of more units and slightly better weapon, I don't think that this really equals 25 points per unit. I think perhaps 15-20 points might be better suited. Combined with the drop in price for the demi-century, you'd be looking at 150 or 200 points for transport and 250 for the demi-century which gives you a 20 unit formation for 400-450.

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-Vaaish

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60cm MW4+? Sagitarii would need a rather large point increase and drop to one weapon per stand. Even 5x 60cm MW4+ shots is a beast on overwatch and sustain.



The demi-century hasn't changed outside of the hypaspist name since 3.15 or 2009 IIRC. That makes it one of the most long standing and tested units in the list. I'm hesitant to toss that up at this point. Artilllery fork isn't going to be in the current list either. We can add it to a variant list.



At least for the primary skitarii list I don't think we need to do this, but at some point we will need to review them. In the mean time, lets just get what we have nailed down.

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-Vaaish