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[BR] Knightworld 1.1 vs Chaos

 Post subject: [BR] Knightworld 1.1 vs Chaos
PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 6:22 pm 
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I must have BRDD (Battle Report Deficit Disorder). Every time I set out to start a Battle Report, I've got my forms, and my camera, and am full of zeal. Setup and first turn are meticulously recorded. About half way through the second turn, the action heats up, and I realise that there have been several important events just completely missed. :(

So, anyway, here's a summary of my first test with KW1.1.

My dice suck. :'(

Here's a bigger summary. The lists used.

Knightworld (v1.1)
425 3 Paladins + Baron
350 4 Paladins + Seneschal
350 4 Lancers + Seneschal
350 4 Errants + Seneschal
500 3 Crusaders
175 6 Squires
250 3 Wardens (2AA, 1BC)
300 Skitarii
150 2 Thunderbolts
150 2 Thunderbolts

Chaos (NetEA Beta, not the most recent changes)
360 Retinue + Oblit + Warlord
510 Retinue + Cult (TS) + Rhinos + DP
225 5 Raptors + DP
150 Chosen + DP
295 Terminators + DP
220 11 Lesser Daemons
650 Ravager Titan
275 Feral Titan
300 Armoured Company (4xLR)


Morgan Vening
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 Post subject: Re: [BR] Knightworld 1.1 vs Chaos
PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 6:23 pm 
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Turn 1 - Cautious Optimism

Following deployment, the Chaos player proclaimed it "Make or Break time", and teleported his Terminators in behind the Crusaders, trying to take out the BTS, and fearing the 90cm 6BPMW. 2 BM's resulted from the teleport. Initiative goes to Chaos (I rolled a 1). Anxious for blood, he engaged, forgetting to Summon Daemons. Using the barge rule, I was able to position the Terminators for some significant additional FireFights from a nearby Lancer formation (though I forgot the 1 Crusader with 2 Terminators isn't pinned). Turns out it was unnecessary, as the two hits from the Crusaders got two kills, but no supporting fire (4 Sentinels, 3 Lancers) did anything. The Terminators got 1 Wound on 2 Crusaders, no Crits. Going into the Resolution with +2 for BM's, + 2 for size (3x2DC vs 2 Terms), I was up by 4. Chaos player rolls double 6. I naturally roll double 1, and lose the combat. Yay me. Both of us break, but due to positioning, I lose a Crusader to hackdown.

The Squires advance and kill a Termie by BM, but that's it.

Chaos reposition the Raptors, Oblit Retinue, Feral and Land Raiders for the following turn, while I reposition the Wardens, and then burn both sets of TBolts on failed Ground Attacks, before having the Hyapsists Double into the open, to kill off the Terminator formation.

Chosen double for position, and fire from the hip at the Squires, scoring a hit. The shot hits the one armoured section of the Armiger Sentinel, and the Squire lives.

The Lancers and Paladins B maneuver forward for position, and the Rhino Retinue covers one of the Chaos objectives.

Finally, the Ravager Doubles up, tail lashing wildly, and wings a shot at the broken Crusaders. Fails to hit, but due to LOS, I'm forced to take the BM hit on the wounded Crusader, and he goes poof.

The Errants double and get good LOS on Oblit Retinue, gaining 3 hits, including one on the Oblit. It saves, but some decent damage, finally. Being the final action, Paladin A march forward to mutually cover the Errants.

The only Broken formation (the single BTS Crusader) rallies. Go team!

Morgan Vening
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 Post subject: Re: [BR] Knightworld 1.1 vs Chaos
PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 6:24 pm 
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Turn 2 - The Wheels Come Off.

Knights Win Initiative rolling a 2! Woot! A double whammy of Paladins doubling into FF range of the Oblit Retinue (doing nothing but a BM), and Errants assaulting on retain. With a total of 4xFS5+, 4XMW3+, 4xMW5+, 4xNormal5+, and 6 supporting FF4+(I blocked LOS to the 4th Paladin), I manage 3 hits, 2 kills (Oblit saved). Yay me. Chaos responds with 4 hits, so forced to allocate one to each. I'm due to lose one. Of course it's the Seneschal. I'm up by 1 before the roll, win by 3, and after hackdowns, the sole Marine and his Obiterator buddy run for the hills.

The Land Raiders double around some terrain, and wing a volley into the anticipating Lancers. Hit once. And a Lancer bites it. Retaining with the Feral, the Chaos player runs it in to cover the Land Raiders, and volleys into the Lancers. Due to the loss of the Lancer to the Raiders, he's able to position the Hellmouth to touch the Paladins and Squires. One Paladin is hit, but it survives. The DeathStorm winds up, scoring two hits. I fail two saves, and the last Lancer runs home to mommy. Sentinels (due to the BM received from the Hellmouth) fail to act, and so shoot in frustration at the Feral for no effect.

The Raptors move into the terrain near the Blitz, keeping out of LOS of most threats, ready to threaten the softer Knight formations (Wardens or the single BTS Crusader). The Crusader succeeds on an activation after encouragement from the Baron. Advancing into the terrain, he places the template over all the Raptors, and needing 6's to hit, scores two kills which is what was needed to break them. Go Team!

The Rhino Retinue advance and secure a Chaos Objective, and fire at the Errants with half their formation, scoring a single hit. With 3 Errants, and 1BM, (plus another for being shot at), I make my armor save. Another Errant crashes, and the surviving two rush to the opponent's Blitz. Except one trips, and dies. Of course.

Wardens clean the clock on the Raptors, Battle Cannon hitting and killing, and wiping them out.

Ravager charges up onto a hill and lets Paladin A have it. Scoring 6 hits, the two front Paladins crash, and the Doomburner fires on a now open Baron! Burner hits, but the Baron's Knightshield shouts "Denied!". Happy dance! Breaking regardless, I run them back to secure the other Chaos Objective. With a bit of luck, I can get Blitz and T&H in Turn 3.

Hyapsists double into a fire support position against the Chosen, but fail to do any more than place a BM. The Chosen, who I thought had activated, but hadn't (it's not fair to take advantage of my forgetfulness!), then summon some Daemons, and charge the Hyapsists. The luck I have with 5 hits (causing 2 wounds) matters little when I take 5 4+cover saves, and fail 4. The mods are tied, and the Chaos player wins by 1. Hyapsists run away, but as one of the Chosen losses was a Flamer, only 1BM is added to the Chosen, keeping them far from Broken.

Now that a fully supported assault against an unactivated Chosen is out of the question, the Paladins, followed by two flights of TBolts, position for a Turn 3 Assault on the Rhino Retinue. The combined firepower causes three Rhinos, and happily enough, a Thousand Sons formation, to go poof, meaning the Retinue will retain BMs. Even better!

Paladins A managed to rally, but the Errant failed, denying me any real chance at the Blitz/T&H combo. the two men in the Oblit formation were able to pull it together, but my Lancer failed (denying ANY chance at the Blitz/TH combo).

Morgan Vening
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 Post subject: Re: [BR] Knightworld 1.1 vs Chaos
PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 6:24 pm 
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Turn 3 - Some Hope, But The Pain Just Won't Stop.

Chaos win the Initative, after I again roll a 1. Deciding to take the offensive, the Rhino retinue summoned Flamers (double 1), and went for a favorable engage against the Paladins, keeping everything outside counter-charge range. I moved my Paladins in, hoping for a second round. I was also able to get one stand of the 3 strong, 1BM Chosen formation into support range. Hey, what the heck. I roll first. 4x4+FS. Nada. 4x4+Normal, 1 hit, saved, naturally. Response is 6 hits. I roll 2 on each of the front guys first. 4 saves failed. Rerolled. Failed. ::) One hit on the remaining Paladin, and one hit on the Seneschal. 2 saves. Failed. Oh, come ON! Thankfully, both made it on the reroll. He had +2 for Size, I got it for BM's, he was up by 2 on casualties, I still had my Inspiring, so I'm down by 1. He rolls a 2 and a 3. I roll a 4! TIE GAME. He chooses not to countercharge, I do, but stupidly put myself in a position to be shot by all three Chosen. Now, with 6x4+ (2FS, 2MW, 2Norm), I manage to snuff two Rhinos. Woot! Return fire causes 8 hits, 4 to each of my surviving, but inevitably broken Paladins. Finally, luck happens, and I save all of them. The combat result has me up by 1! We both roll 3's, and I win the combat! Both retreat back. But I'm broken too, but fortune favours the bold, and I rush forward (as much to avoid the Feral and Armoured Comany behind me) to position for a rematch in 4th turn.

The Chosen activate, and choosing not to summon, break on the 2+ Initiative check. They fall back behind the Titan.

Squires double across to fire on the broken Rhino Retinue, killing a Flamer due to BM, and putting a decision into play with regards TSNP (Squires and Paladin A unbroken) and T&H (Squires covering the right Chaos Obj, Paladins covering the left).

TBolts A take a Void Shield off the Ravager. Land Raiders do the same to the Crusader, and TBolts B finishes out the trilogy on the Feral. This pays off when the Feral fails to activate, and with no visible targets, and an easy denial of TSNP for me, chooses to Rally. Success would have likely been a double that would have broken the Squires and denied me any chance for victory.

The Crusader activates, again requiring the urging of the Baron, wobbles a bit but makes the Walker test. Concerned about revealing himself to the Ravager, he works on securing the Knight Blitz for a possible DTF point. Firing on the Land Raiders, he's able to hit all with the template. Both Lascannons go wide, but two hits from the Quake Cannon cause one to explode. Yay me!

Activating the Ravager, he rampages the Titan over to Paladins A, and unleashes hell. The Deathstorms and Tail cause 3 hits. First Paladin survives. Two hits on the Baron. Makes one, takes one. Yeah! All I need is to save the TK hit on the first Paladin, and I can sprint to the Blitz for the game. Hold on, Critical for the Baron. 6. Crap! The first Paladin fails the TK hit anyway, but god damn!

With just the Wardens to activate, I consider going for DTF. Working out that it'd give me 1pt to 0pts, meaning a 4th turn regardless, I decided not to expose them to the Ravager's next activation, and instead directed them to break the Raiders. But they don't pay attention to me. Why should they? So I shuffled them into a position to maybe do something the following turn.

After failing to rally the Paladin B's, and having every single Chaos formation rally, and my inability to gain any points (the Squires were about to be savaged by the Feral and the Rhino Retinue, and the Wardens unable to reach the DTF, and with the ability to hit his own DTF without checks) and his ability to get two, and with time a factor (it was 11:30pm and the host's game finished and packed away), and rolling a 1 for Initative, I begrudgingly conceeded.

First game, effectively 2-0 loss in the 4th turn.

Morgan Vening
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 Post subject: Re: [BR] Knightworld 1.1 vs Chaos
PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 6:26 pm 
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Normally, I'm fairly conscientious about blaming luck. I might curse over a slight imbalance in probability, but over the course of the game, I usually can keep an eye on how it usually levels out.

Not this game, however.
4 Strategy Rolls, 1, 2, 1, 1.
5 Assaults (4, + 1 tie), highest result was a 4, and including a loss when I was up by 4.
8 DT (All Walker) 1 dead
3 Crits, 1 dead.
~32 RA tests. Failed ~11. (And prior to the 8 in a row, was running 10 from 21).
Lots CC/FF attacks, well below average.

None of the above is obscene in itself. But all of them in the one game...

I averaged even on MW (1 for 2), and TK (1 for 2), and activations and rallies were about right.

But it was all entertaining. A fun time was had by all.

Morgan Vening
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 Post subject: Re: [BR] Knightworld 1.1 vs Chaos
PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 1:24 am 
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After Battle Analysis

Nothing seemed to play 'below weight', with all operational failures to be effective coming down to either bad luck, stupid decisions (my part), or good decisions (opponent's part). So far, there's nothing I wouldn't hesitate to use again, though the Paladins just seem a little underwhelming.

The speed difference seems to be where that problem lies. Where a Lancer can advance to firing range, a Paladin often will need to double, losing most of the benefit of it's addition firepower to hit mods. The Lancer is then in a position to effectively Assault, whereas the Paladin either can't Assault, or do so effectively (Paladin needs base contact to excel, Lancers need FF range). I'm not sure which side needs changing (boost Paladins, or nerf Lancers), or if any change is actually necessary, but it's something I'll keep my eye on.

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 Post subject: Re: [BR] Knightworld 1.1 vs Chaos
PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 4:35 pm 
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Knights' speeds I think are a little off. In the past the speeds for Paladins, Errants, and Lancers were 20 cm, 20cm and 25cm respectively. I don't know why the speed for Errants and Lancers was increased.

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 Post subject: Re: [BR] Knightworld 1.1 vs Chaos
PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 5:05 pm 
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The speed was discussed in the 1.02 thread. A move of 30cm seemed too good for the Errants/Lancers both due to the problems you stated Morgan and with late turn marches for objectives. Not to mention that they were never that fast in SM/TL.

Then of course they have the same armor, and amount of weapons as a Paladin, yet with 150% the speed. Blood Angel engines? :P

A move of 20cm was suggested for all Knights, as well as giving Lancers and Errants Infiltrator. I'd like to give that a shot.

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 Post subject: Re: [BR] Knightworld 1.1 vs Chaos
PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 7:42 pm 
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Errants were never that fast, I suggested Lancers get infiltrator and a 20cm move speed.

Errants are 30cm because of the attempt to make paladins the mid ranged knights, errants the close combat knights and lancers the firefight knights, which works in some ways but not in others.


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 Post subject: Re: [BR] Knightworld 1.1 vs Chaos
PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 7:52 pm 
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They are all very fast for walkers. Usually walking vehicles are Speed 15cm (Dreadnoughts, Stompas, most Titans).

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 Post subject: Re: [BR] Knightworld 1.1 vs Chaos
PostPosted: Sun Jun 27, 2010 4:39 pm 
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They're slower than Warhounds and (sic) Eldar Titans, though. The Warhounds are probably the closest comparison.

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 Post subject: Re: [BR] Knightworld 1.1 vs Chaos
PostPosted: Sun Jun 27, 2010 9:24 pm 
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Slaanesh walkers (daemon engines) are 30cm

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 Post subject: Re: [BR] Knightworld 1.1 vs Chaos
PostPosted: Sun Jun 27, 2010 9:35 pm 
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Slaanesh walkers have very long legs.

Knights have longer legs than Stompas (15cm) but short legs than Slaanesh Knights (30cm).

In Titan Legions the Paladin and Errant had the same speed (20cm) the Lancer and Baron were faster (25cm) and the Crusader and Castellan the slowest (15cm).

Judging by their role and the length of their legs this same speed values could be adopted for Epic: Armageddon.

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 Post subject: Re: [BR] Knightworld 1.1 vs Chaos
PostPosted: Sun Jun 27, 2010 10:06 pm 
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BlackLegion wrote:
Slaanesh walkers have very long legs.

Knights have longer legs than Stompas (15cm) but short legs than Slaanesh Knights (30cm).

In Titan Legions the Paladin and Errant had the same speed (20cm) the Lancer and Baron were faster (25cm) and the Crusader and Castellan the slowest (15cm).

Judging by their role and the length of their legs this same speed values could be adopted for Epic: Armageddon.

But speeds in Titan Legions aren't directly comparable. Paladins and Errants have the same speed as Land Raiders. Lancers the same speed as Rhinos.

Length of leg shouldn't be the principal basis for what speed a unit has. Else Imperators would be outrunning Warhounds.

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 Post subject: Re: [BR] Knightworld 1.1 vs Chaos
PostPosted: Sun Jun 27, 2010 10:34 pm 
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I would think that you would not see faster Knights than the House Devine Knights.

Sleeker, Scouts, and Daemonically possessed, these would not appear as mechanical as standard Knights.

So 30cm is the upper limit I would think

That's it from me...

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