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Where is the legio cybernetica ???

 Post subject: Where is the legio cybernetica ???
PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 12:16 pm 
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According to the AM/TL background, some cohort of the legio cyberenetica have betrayed the Imperium but the majority redeem their honor and still active.

Why not re-include the robots as a support detachment or detachment of the skitarii main list , with for example a generic profile and interchageable weapons for sticking to ancien type of robots ?

What do you think about this idea ?

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 Post subject: Where is the legio cybernetica ???
PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 12:24 pm 
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Just use them as sentinels or combat servitors is the easy answer here, don't really need them as new units.

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 Post subject: Where is the legio cybernetica ???
PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 12:47 pm 
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AI units would fit for the Dark Mechaninus. Kaban Machine etc...

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 Post subject: Where is the legio cybernetica ???
PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 1:04 pm 
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The profile for the Praetorian Combat Servitor is meant to allow a counts-as for Imperial Robots.

Their status in the background is uncertain at best these days, as the 'AI's tend to turn to Chaos' concept has become very prominent in recent years. It is quite likely that like Squats they have been quietly removed from the background entirely.

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 Post subject: Where is the legio cybernetica ???
PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 1:16 pm 
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Quote: (fattdex @ 05 Jul. 2009, 12:24 )

Just use them as sentinels or combat servitors is the easy answer here, don't really need them as new units.

I know that many use as a walker or pretorian. It may be simpler, but not justice to the diversity and the partilarity of these models.

I dislike the "count as" idea for an existing unit !

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 Post subject: Where is the legio cybernetica ???
PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 1:25 pm 
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Well, unless you can confirm the existence of Imperial Robots in the current background, I will not be able to put in stats for them as anything other than a collector's model.




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 Post subject: Where is the legio cybernetica ???
PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 1:27 pm 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 05 Jul. 2009, 13:04 )

The profile for the Praetorian Combat Servitor is meant to allow a counts-as for Imperial Robots.

Their status in the background is uncertain at best these days, as the 'AI's tend to turn to Chaos' concept has become very prominent in recent years. It is quite likely that like Squats they have been quietly removed from the background entirely.

In the original background robots are not the traitors themself, as AI they only following orders, but the adeptus mechanicus technicians who maintain them.

I quote Lexicanum (codex titanicus source) >

Following the defeat of the Heresy and the banishment of the Traitor Legions, the dishonored Legio cohorts also fled into the Eye of Terror, where they remain to this day. Since the defeat of Horus, the Legio Cybernetica has pledged itself anew to the Imperium. Its members now take binding oaths of loyalty more terrible than any Marine Chapter oaths.


As I said above, I find it unfortunate to threat them as "count as". Many players still have these cool units but not a decent profile to want to play.

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 Post subject: Where is the legio cybernetica ???
PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 1:31 pm 
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I have read every Horus Heresy novel so far, including 'Mechanicus' which details the war on Mars, and the only AI machine/robot that has appeared so far was inately Chaotic in nature, not simply following orders.

Without concrete proof that the Legio Cybernetica still exists in the background, I cannot contennance the inclusion of Imperial Robot stats in the core list.




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 Post subject: Where is the legio cybernetica ???
PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 2:16 pm 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 05 Jul. 2009, 13:25 )

Well, unless you can confirm the existence of Imperial Robots in the current background, I will not be able to put in stats for them as anything other than a collector's model.

What's wrong with old background? Why should old background to be forgotten just because GW decides it no longer gives enough £££ for them.

Since GW doesn't care anything about Epic anymore we have no requirement to follow GW in slave like manner. We have pretty much free hand with the rules and we can use old background to our advantage at will. Even if GW is stupid enough to forget their old background annoying old players and simplifying background in the process doesn't mean EpicA has to do same thing as well.




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 Post subject: Where is the legio cybernetica ???
PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 2:26 pm 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 05 Jul. 2009, 13:25 )

Well, unless you can confirm the existence of Imperial Robots in the current background, I will not be able to put in stats for them as anything other than a collector's model.

Ha ! "Existence in the current background" ...

Sorry, but this is not a valid argument regarding the AM/TL/epic system.

Are the Knights still exist in the official background ? Yet they are in the list.
Are the Squats still exist ? The list exist, and many players continue to play them.
Are the etc ...

Why refer to the current background while so far, only the epic system referring to machines that no one referred to in 40k. For exemple, I've never heard any references to Ordinatus in 40k. For novels, the authors also take great liberties with the "official" background.

Now, if it's just a matter of "unit overdose" in the list, I understand your reluctance.




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 Post subject: Where is the legio cybernetica ???
PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 4:06 pm 
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Robots (in my opinion) ARE in the list. They're called Praetorian combat servitors, they're armed with an autocannon and power weapon and have a suitably tough save.  The fluff text mentions that a variety of types of praetorians exist and some are robotic in nature.
Whether you now switch around the autocannon for Heavy Bolter, Multimelta or any of the weapons that robot's used to have the result is very much the same; indeed we don't have IG or SM squads armed with different weapon setups to what, in terms of play, would all these similar units existing have?
Something being absent in words does not preclude it's existence within one's own imagination!

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 Post subject: Where is the legio cybernetica ???
PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 5:00 pm 
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Quote: (Khan @ 05 Jul. 2009, 14:26 )

Are the Knights still exist in the official background ? Yet they are in the list.

Yes, Knight Paladins appear in the Horus Heresy book 'Mechanicus'.

Why refer to the current background while so far, only the epic system referring to machines that no one referred to in 40k. For exemple, I've never heard any references to Ordinatus in 40k.

An Ordinatus appears in the Horus Heresy novel 'Mechanicus'.
Six Siege Engines that could broadly be termed Ordinatii appear in the Horus Heresy book 'Fallen Angels' (they fire what appear to be nuclear weapons).
Multiple Ordinatii appear in the novel 'Dark Mechanicus'.

For novels, the authors also take great liberties with the "official" background.
Every large plot element that goes into the novels, especially the Heresy novels, has to be okay'd by GW's IP department. Ordinatii definitely exist, as do Knights.


Now, if it's just a matter of "unit overdose" in the list, I understand your reluctance.
As MoK says, the Praetorian stats are pretty much identical to what you'd expect from an Imperial Robot anyway, and indeed were written with that dual usage in mind; They're already in the list, and don't require a specific mention because they haven't been specifically mentioned in any GW publication in ten years or more AFAIK.

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 Post subject: Where is the legio cybernetica ???
PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 5:02 pm 
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Are the Knights still exist in the official background ? Yet they are in the list.

Yes. See "Mechanicum"
Are the Squats still exist ? The list exist, and many players continue to play them.
Yes. See Demiurg.

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 Post subject: Where is the legio cybernetica ???
PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 5:07 pm 
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Quote: (tneva82 @ 05 Jul. 2009, 14:16 )

Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 05 Jul. 2009, 13:25 )

Well, unless you can confirm the existence of Imperial Robots in the current background, I will not be able to put in stats for them as anything other than a collector's model.

What's wrong with old background? Why should old background to be forgotten just because GW decides it no longer gives enough £££ for them.

Squats were dropped because their awkward implementation in Warhammer 40,000 didn't fit the background setting properly, not because of poor sales (they used to sell more than some other lines that were kept on).

Robots were dropped because as the Warhammer 40,000 background evolved, they created the idea that Imperial AI's were unreliable and tended to fall to Chaos, so pure 'robots' had to go and they were replaced by heavily augmented biologicals: Praetorian Combat Servitors.

Ruleswise in Epic, the two are virtually interchangable.

Since GW doesn't care anything about Epic anymore we have no requirement to follow GW in slave like manner.


I personally have no interest in playing an Epic that doesn't reflect the modern implementation of Warhammer 40,000 / the Warhammer 40,000 background.

We build sand castles in GW's playground, and use their sandpit on sufferance.

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 Post subject: Where is the legio cybernetica ???
PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 8:21 pm 
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Quote: (Khan @ 05 Jul. 2009, 14:26 )

I've never heard any references to Ordinatus in 40k. For novels, the authors also take great liberties with the "official" background.

Page 11 of Forge World's Imperial Armour Vol.1 has a section on Ordinatus.

E&C: Robots were dropped because as the Warhammer 40,000 background evolved, they created the idea that Imperial AI's were unreliable and tended to fall to Chaos, so pure 'robots' had to go and they were replaced by heavily augmented biologicals: Praetorian Combat Servitors.
You’re conflating AI and Robots there. The imperial Robot always had very simple, rigid and basic programs and were a very long way from anything like a AI like the Kabal machine. The current background has Titans and Land Raider with Machine-Spirits, able to control weapons and move the vehicle to a limited degree. These are not really intelligent enough to be full AIs, but are the sort of thing that were piloting the robots too.

The Robots have not been dropped from recent background material - Robots/Legio Cybernetica fought on both sides of the Heresy - see the Horus Heresy Collected Vision book series, and there have also been a couple of very brief references in the Horus Heresy novels too I believe. The may have been mentioned in the detailed force disposition in one or other of the of the Battle for Armageddon or 13th Black Crusade Black Library campaign books too (not the codexes for those).

Some time ago Jes Goodwin got as far as sketching out what updated versions of the imperial robots could look like, they ended up expressing their roboty desires with the Necrons instead though:



All that said I concur with others have said - the Praetorian Combat Servitor statline corresponds to a Robot pretty much perfectly. I have issues with other areas of the Ad-mech list, but will save those for another time, I'm waffling here when I really should be doing important stuff.





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