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Battle Group Sword http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=14350	Page 1 of 1

Author:	Heavy Messing [ Thu Dec 25, 2008 11:09 pm ]
Post subject:	Battle Group Sword
Greetings fellow Princeps! Sadly, it's been a long while since my list visit to the TacCom forms, but I returned today while browsing t'internet (escaping xmas family hell) to find a new(er), more settled(?) ATML list (Legio Gryphon), which I really like, yay! I've fielded some of the previous editions of the list against my gaming buddy, who has IG and Orks (likes horde armies, lots of infantry formations, sometimes mechanised), using proxies or various titan stand ins and have met with varying amounts of success over time, nameingly dealing/rolling badly with very large mutually supporting formations (again symptomatic of IG and Ork?) but scoring some OK victories... My plan model wise is to now build a complete 'newer look' Titan force using GW's Warlord and FW's Reaver's and Warhounds. I think the FW models are simply some of the best mini's I've seen... (The only thing I'm curious about here is I've noticed that FW tends to field 'Wolf' and 'Jackal' config Warhounds, but I've seen no reference to this in normal Epic/EA material... Is this FW only and how canon is it?) I'm looking towards a 3k list initially so I find myself torn between a core group of three Reavers plus Warhounds/support, or a Warlord and a pair of Reavers plus Warhounds/support. I guess I'm balking at the thought of a 'all eggs approach' by taking a Warlord, but I do like the image of the Warlord flanked by it's minions and it makes a mean (but certainly not invincible) BTS objective. Anyway, my main purpose here is to explore possible alternative load outs, I've initially been sticking to standard/WSYWIG loadouts, but have experimented with plasma configs too (mainly on Warlords) and the occassional quake cannon. I find I often need to balance good multi-shot weapons (Gatling, TLD) for dealing with hordes (and stripping shields) and MW's to take on RA units or other engines.... I have to admit to never trying a 'support' Reaver with full rocket/missile pods (shame on me), probably because I'm not a fan of the pods generally... I guess I prefer 'generalist' loadouts over specialised. I also tend to stay away from close combat/fire fight options, and rely on organic CC/FF values. I'd like to hear some ideas/thoughts on alternatives to the boxed/provided weapon options on the Reaver and Warlord, anyone noted any particular splendid loadouts???! All comments appreicated, HM

Author:	Vaaish [ Fri Dec 26, 2008 8:10 pm ]
Post subject:	Battle Group Sword
I've been building up my AMTL as well, and from what I can understand from scrying the list is that titans in general go down easier in CC because they don't get their void shields or alot of their firepower. For a 3k list I had originally planned on a couple of warlords with some forge knights and warhounds. However I managed to pick up a couple of reavers and I've adjusted somewhat. Right now I'm fielding a warlord with 2x plasma cannons a gatling blaster and a volcano cannon and the carapace ML upgrade. Supporting that are two reavers one geared up with two vulcan megabolters and a missile launcher and the other with an inferno gun, laser burner, and missile launcher. Both ofthose have the sacred icon and vet princeps and should stay within range of the warlord to drag it along or provide mutual support. For lesser armored units I have a unit for forge knights and I'm planning on fielding a couple of warhounds to scout and support. The idea is that the warlord can deal with war engine formations and armored units while the reavers can handle the close combat (+2 to results roll for inspiring plus the extra attacks from the laser burner) as well as anti infantry duties and screening the warlord while the warhounds take objectives and pop targets of opporturnity. The forge knights are just there to create ZOC issues and pop armor. Perhaps even aid in CC. Not sure how it will work but I think it would be fun to play.

Author:	Dwarf Supreme [ Fri Dec 26, 2008 11:32 pm ]
Post subject:	Battle Group Sword
Welcome aboard, Heavy. I'm glad you like what you see for the current version of the AMTL list. The Jackal and Wolf Warhound configurations harken back to the Adeptus Titanicus days for naming specific types of Titans for a given chassis. Warhounda had Wolf and Jackal, Reavers were Goth, Hun and Vandal and Warlords were Nemesis, Eclipse, Night Gaunt and Death Bringer.

Author:	Heavy Messing [ Sat Dec 27, 2008 8:35 pm ]
Post subject:	Battle Group Sword
Thanks for the welcome guys... @Vaaish - I like your Warlord setup, I've tried the 2x plasma cannon also for mucho MW goodness, and I was imagining similar-ish layouts for my Reavers. Army wise I was also planning on Forge Knights, but given the scarity of the knight models on ebay, I'm still looking for good models to use.... @Dwarf Supreme - Thanks for that, I'd heard of the classes for Warlords, but not for Reavers or Warhounds, is there any further info on each class? I'll have google for them... Since my first post I've had a think about the models I was thinking of buying and the other loadouts that could replace them.... Warlord (Games Workshop - Mars Pattern?) Gatling Cannon Turbo Laser Destructor x2 Volcano Cannon Quite happy to leave this setup without modification, GC and TLD's laying down a barrage of AP/AT fire, backed up by the volcano cannon as a heavy MW/TK hitter. I might think about taking out the GC and replacing it with a plasma cannon/destructor for additional engine killing capability, or swapping in a laser blaster for total laser doom... Good possibilities. Reaver Titan (Forge World - Lucius Pattern) Volcano Cannon Gatling Cannon Rocket Launcher I don't mind the GC or the VC but frankly the missile launcher annoys me. I don't feel that on a Reaver, with only three hardpoints to use, using only one launcher is great idea. While on a 'support' Reaver with three launchers/9BP, you're laying down three templates at AP 4+, AT 5+, one launcher is only giving one template at AP4+/AT6+... If I'm fielding two/three Reavers, then I think I need to task them accordingly, or else make them tactically flexible. My thoughts, while trying to make the maximum use of the modelling options available... FOr those not provided, I'm planning on using 40k scale plastic weapons where possible (meltas, plasmas etc.) which should fit with in the 'look' of the newer titans. Reaver 1 - Tactical Hardpoint: Gatling Blaster Hardpoint: Gatling Blaster? Laser Blaster? Hardpoint: Volcano Cannon?? Reaver 2 - Tactical/Support Hardpoint: Gatling Blaster Hardpoint: Laser Blaster? Plasma Cannon? Hardpoint: Volcano Cannon? Reaver 3 - Assault Hardpoint: Melta Cannon Hardpoint: Vulcan Mega Bolter? Laser Burner? Hardpoint: Vulcan Mega Bolter? Warhound Titan (Forge World - Mars Pattern?) Vulcan Megabolter Plasma Blastgun Again, I quite like this design, the bolter is an excellent general weapon while the plasmagun often forces my opponent to respect the MW punch a pair of 'Hounds can give. Very useful if you REALLY need to reach out and kill something, like a pair of Deathstrikes... I don't see myself changing the loadout. Swapping in a turbo laser destructor makes it more effective against vehicles.. meh... but would mean purchasing extra models/bitz which I feel is unnecessary. Comments? Ã‚Â

Author:	wargame_insomniac [ Sun Dec 28, 2008 6:47 pm ]
Post subject:	Battle Group Sword
Hi I am limited as to which designs I can comment on having used in practice as opposed to just Theoryhammer. I did like the Reaver with 3 MRL's. It has proved very effective in 3 seprate game for me so far. If you buy 3 of the normal FW Reaver titans you will have 3 MRL's but crucially have a load of volcano cannons and gatling blasters to use euther as is or as basis for conversions with 40k scale plastic weapons. Have you thought about paired volcano cannons on one Reaver rather than 2 separate on 2 Reavers. Whta I find is that with only one MW dice it is very frustrating when you miss. Which seems to happen with many crucial rolls, Having 2 VC's improves the odds as at least one will hit. Also it allows one Reaver to hang back with 90cm range. Putting one VC on 2 Reavers does spread the threat but so far I have found diminishes the returns. But thyat is my admitedly limited expereince. You may have experienced differently. I would like to do a dual Meltacannon armed titan. I figure best on a Raever chassis as Warlord would be too slow for the short ranged weaponry. Again with just one Meltacannon I figure you would miss the crucial roll. Not sure what to take on 3rd hardpoint though. The Warhound combo you can buy direct from FW so easy to field. Personally I love the PBG+TLD combo even though you pay more for TLD. However it depends on what else youy are fielding. If you are fielding Warlords and Reavers with lots of AT weapons then you probably need the Warhounds to deal with the inevitable infantry. I am not yet convinced by the Inferno Cannon- too situation specific for my tastes. The VMB is an awesome AP killing machine but if you go for paired VMB's then you pay for premium. So I would rate the PBG+VMB as maybe the second or third best of the Warhound combos that I have personally used. I love paired PBG's for the ultimate in hit and run tactics. But the VMB+PBG still has the MW shots to worry opponent whilst the VMB can decimate his infatry if out in the open. Cheers James

Author:	ragnarok [ Sun Dec 28, 2008 11:44 pm ]
Post subject:	Battle Group Sword
I have fielded a twin volcano cannon, single turbo laser Reaver on a few occasions and it has done very well for itself. It can take on medium warengines by itself and armour unitsfear it, also unshielded heavy engines also try to stay clear. With the barrage titan. Have you looked into a warlord with a CLP and 3 MRLs? I have found them great as anti horde units. Sit them on the blitz and sustain away. Other warlord weaponloads I have found useful are: Double gatling double tubos. 16 shots a turn will scare off most formations. Though infantry heavy will survive better due to the to hit rolls. double plasma cannons double plasma destructor. Oddly enough not that great against Russes or other 4+RA (only reduces the armour sdave by 33%), but I have regularly wasted ork armour and battle wagon forations with them. I have also managed to cripple a SHT company with a few lucky cricts (my opponent passed an execessive amount of saves them I made an equally obsence amount of crit rolls).. Also that many MWs can sacare an opponent into doing what you want, even if they don't do that much.

Author:	Dwarf Supreme [ Mon Dec 29, 2008 4:14 pm ]
Post subject:	Battle Group Sword
I've found that arming Warhounds with a TLD and a VMB can be very effective, lots of dice and deadly against infantry and vehicles.

Author:	Heavy Messing [ Tue Dec 30, 2008 12:08 am ]
Post subject:	Battle Group Sword
@All - Thanks for the replies! @Dwarf Supreme - I'd maybe like to arm my Warhounds with Vulcans & TLD, but to do so I'd either have to model 2/4 Hounds with TLD's somehow, or buy extra models for the FW bitz, which seems like a total pain in the.... wallet. Ha! Plus I'd be left with 'spare' Inferno Cannon's which would be a waste... I kinda like the MW goodness of the Blastgun anyway... @Ragnarok - I'm not sure I could consider devoting a whole Warlord to becoming what is in effect an indirectly firing Reaver (not itself a bad thing) I think if I was going to go for an artillery Warlord, it would be with a quake cannon loadout, MW BP doom..... yeah.... @Wargame Insomniac - The 3 MRL Reaver is something I've put a lot of thought into, and I'm glad to hear you find it such an effective unit, as I'm seriously thinking of buying. Anyone else thoughts on this? It seems like it would be effective as Ragnarok suggests above, holding the blitz and blazing away on sustain, it'd be pretty hard to shift by anything other than a determined assault or a large engine. In general, I think it'd be be a great 'support' titan. I'm interested by the dual VC Reaver, it means that it would it would be death on any kind of super heavy or engine, but I do see a greatly reduced effectiveness against infantry or large armour formations. Granted, any single unit on the recieveing end of two VC's is dead meat... It'd be easy to make as I'd probably have a 'spare' VC from the 2nd Reaver... I'm not sure... Dual meltas has an allure all of it's own too... Also not sure on a third 'assault' hardpoint, maybe something mad like a barrage missile... Hmmm... Ok, so given the feedback so far, I think I'd be looking at so far: 3000 points (approx) Reaver Titan (Tactical) Hardpoints: Gatling Blaster/Gatling Blaster/Laserblaster? Reaver Titan (Tactical/Assault) Hardpoints: Volcano Cannons? Melta Cannons? Or similar to above? Reaver Titan (Support) Hardpoints: 3 x Missile/Rocket Pod Warhound Pack - Plasma Blastguns - Vulcan Megabolters Warhound Pack - Plasma Blastguns - Vulcan Megabolters at least one Warhound pack and the support Reaver then for definite. I'm considering dropping a Warhound pack, perhaps for a single Warhound and upgrades, or just other support options. Any ideas on this would be great, I was considering fighters or some Forge Knights... I'm still undecided on options for the 'tactical' titan, and whether or not I need an 'assault' titan. It might be useful to have something that can wade right in, but making it short ranged, I'm worried it'll be unable to dictate engagements and therefore might not make it's points back in some games... Hence why it might go tactical instead? So, questions then: 1) Reaver 2 - tactical or assault? I'm leaning towards tactical... Anyone used a Reaver in an assault role before? I know I haven't in all honesty... If so, how to equip it? 2) Second warhound pack? Needed or not.... Other options? I'm going to check out smoe possible Knight miniatures... HM out.

Author:	wargame_insomniac [ Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:28 pm ]
Post subject:	Battle Group Sword
Hi I would recomend taking Tactical rather than Assualt Reaver based on my games so far. In my first AMTL playtest game I took several assualt weapons. I found it really reduced my firepower but in genral I liacked the speed to get assualt weapons into close combat. I was playing IG so maybe I would have had different experience playing say Chaos. Cheers James

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