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v3.11 comments

pixelgeek

Post subject: v3.11 comments

Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 2:32 am

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It is going to be some time before aI actually playtest this so these are all mainly structural comments.

I like the break between the two lists. The previous army list seemed as if it was just a little too good but also lacked some character.

That said, the War Gryphons list seems a bit dull. Titans, titans and more titans.

How common are Emperor Titans? Are they common enough to make a core element in the list? It strikes me that they are even rarer than the Knights?

Speaking of which... why are they missing? Rarity?

Are you actually writing a list with a free unit in it after all the complaints about the CSM and Guard lists? :-)

The scout Warhound entry seems superfluous. Why not a single entry with options to buy one or two warhounds?

The Adeptus Mechanicus list looks good but seems to be based a lot on the Guard list. Any reason why you didn't try to fiddle with the structure instead? Did you have a design goal with the list?

You may want to add some note for people so they know what to do to build the Ordinatus Minoris and also so people know what a Lysander is and how to represent it.

As I mentioned, I liked the division of the list into two armies but I think that it has overall lead to a titan list that isn't as interesting as the previous list.

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nealhunt

Post subject: v3.11 comments

Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 1:58 pm

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E&C: That reminds me...

I was discussing the OGBM and the potential presence of the Imperator and MegaGargant. It occurred to me that the way to include them might be to put them in the Appendix area with suggested point costs for the purposes of scenario design only. That way you can get the models and (best guess at) costs into the lists, without the need to keep them balanced at GT point levels.

What do you think?

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: v3.11 comments

Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 3:25 pm

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the War Gryphons list seems a bit dull. Titans, titans and more titans.

That's because it's a Titan Legion.

The spiritual child of V2 is actually the Skitarii PDF army list, as that allows a modicum of everything.

How common are Emperor Titans?

One or two per Titan Legion (A Legion being ~100 Titans).

How common are Space Marine Supreme Commanders? (One per 1000 Marines).

Speaking of which... why are they missing? Rarity?

Knights?

Generic Knights have been introduced into the AMTL army list, and will go into the Skitarii PDF list on the next update too.

Are you actually writing a list with a free unit in it after all the complaints about the CSM and Guard lists? :-)

What unit is free?

Are you referring to the Lysander Fighter?

That's only free as it's meant to come with the Warmonger Titan, but needed a seperate army list entry so as to make it a seperate formation... so it's not really free, it's a creative use of the army list format... which is nothing like random free comissars, or giving a free supreme commander to an initiative 1+ army.

The scout Warhound entry seems superfluous. Why not a single entry with options to buy one or two warhounds?

Noted.

The Adeptus Mechanicus list looks good but seems to be based a lot on the Guard list. Any reason why you didn't try to fiddle with the structure instead? Did you have a design goal with the list?

Yes, you can find my design goal in several of the pinned threads in this sub forum.

In brief, carapace armoured skitarii with all their iconic paraphenalia (Heavy tanks, super-heavy ordinatii, titan allies, etc).

I didn't fiddle with the structure of the core/support style because unlike 0-x limits, it scales to any size of game.

You may want to add some note for people so they know what to do to build the Ordinatus Minoris and also so people know what a Lysander is and how to represent it.

First point is well made, and there's a thread in this sub-forum that discusses this.

Lysanders are a small aircraft that was supplied with the Warmonger Titan... anyone fielding a Warmonger will know what they are.

As I mentioned, I liked the division of the list into two armies but I think that it has overall lead to a titan list that isn't as interesting as the previous list.

What would you do to make the AMTL list more interesting?

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: v3.11 comments

Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 3:26 pm

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(nealhunt @ Jun. 03 2008,13:58)

QUOTE

I don't think collector's stats are a terrible way to go about things, and think it's probably inevitable that the Emperor Titans will end up there, but I'd like to see if it's possible to have them in in their 12DC form first.

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pixelgeek

Post subject: v3.11 comments

Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 4:46 pm

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(Evil and Chaos @ Jun. 03 2008,07:25)

QUOTE

Yes, you can find my design goal in several of the pinned threads in this sub forum.

Those appear to be less broad than I was thinking. Also quite long. I think that every army would benefit from a broad, clear mission statement that defined the army and how it was intended to function.

Probably a bit more difficult to do with armies that are meant to be generic though.

That's because it's a Titan Legion.

Doesn't mean you can't add some additional troop types to the list. Especially since all Titan forces have a tough time holding objectives.

You could have two categories of support troops. Those that are 2 per core choice and those that are 1 per core choice. Put things like SHTs in the "1 per" category to make sure that the list isn't dominated by them.

How common are Emperor Titans?

One or two per Titan Legion (A Legion being ~100 Titans).

You misunderstood my question. I meant, how many people are going to have them or have access to them?

They are a fairly rare unit, moreso than Knights I think, so it seems odd (as per Neal's comment) to have them as a core unit in the army.

Effectively it means that most people will have Warlords and Reavers as their core troops in the list.

Perhaps make the Imperator a scenario only unit as Neal suggests and then make the two unit Warhound formation a core choice?

Generic Knights have been introduced into the AMTL army list, and will go into the Skitarii PDF list on the next update too.

So why the choice to make them generic instead of keeping the original units? Is it a rarity issue or is there another reason?

Are you referring to the Lysander Fighter?

There was a smilie. It was a joke. In any case get ready for me to ride you unmercifully about it.

Lysanders are a small aircraft that was supplied with the Warmonger Titan... anyone fielding a Warmonger will know what they are.

I have a Warmonger in my mini case and it has no such aircraft and I don't know what it is. You shouldn't make assumptions like that given how many people are going to get those models via eBay or some other method.

Even so, people shouldn't have to guess what a unit is or what it does. It doesn't take long to add a note to the list to explain what it is for people having a look through the army list.

I didn't fiddle with the structure of the core/support style because unlike 0-x limits, it scales to any size of game.

Yah, yah yah. Hop off the soapbox :-)

As an aside, you assume somehow that the people responsible for the CSM list liked 0-x entries any more than you do and that may not be a safe assumption to make.

What would you do to make the AMTL list more interesting?

Try to come up with a structural concept that provides something unique to the list.

Several fluff pieces about the Adeptus Mechanicus talk about armies being built around Tech Lords so why not work with that as a concept.

The player buys a Tech Lord formation and then is able to get a number of AM based upgrade and support choices for that formation. In addition they can then bring in a single Guard ally formation per Tech Lord.

The AM Lords are always squabbling and fighting amongst themselves so remove the Supreme Commander option from the list but give the army lots of Leaders.

The Ordinatus could also be a Tech Lord upgrade then to help limit their use in the list.

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: v3.11 comments

Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 5:05 pm

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(pixelgeek @ Jun. 03 2008,16:46)

QUOTE

That's because it's a Titan Legion.

The Titan Legion army list represents a force of Titans that goes to war on its own, GW is clear that this happens.

If you're more interested in an Ad-Mech army list that has Titans, SHT's, etc. in it, I'd suggest using the Skitarii PDF army list.

The two main ideas I have for the next version of the Skitarii army list are:

- Introduce the generic Knight.
- Up the % allowed to be spent on Titans to 50%.

How common are Emperor Titans?

One or two per Titan Legion (A Legion being ~100 Titans).

You misunderstood my question. I meant, how many people are going to have them or have access to them?

They are a fairly rare unit, moreso than Knights I think, so it seems odd (as per Neal's comment) to have them as a core unit in the army.

Effectively it means that most people will have Warlords and Reavers as their core troops in the list.

Perhaps make the Imperator a scenario only unit as Neal suggests and then make the two unit Warhound formation a core choice?

Ah I follow you ; See my reply to Neal above.

Generic Knights have been introduced into the AMTL army list, and will go into the Skitarii PDF list on the next update too.

So why the choice to make them generic instead of keeping the original units? Is it a rarity issue or is there another reason?

The community made the choice to have a single knight type available (There was a vote), and I then made the decision that the Knight should be generic (Although closely analygous to the Knight Paladin) due to rarity of models, lack of GW focus on Knights for more than a decade, and to assist people who want to scratchbuild.

The Knightworld list is available for the grognard collectors.

Are you referring to the Lysander Fighter?

There was a smilie. It was a joke. In any case get ready for me to ride you unmercifully about it.

Sorry, but it didn't read like a joke.

I have a Warmonger in my mini case and it has no such aircraft and I don't know what it is. You shouldn't make assumptions like that given how many people are going to get those models via eBay or some other method.

Point taken, not everyone's Warmonger is going to be complete ; In the fullness of time the Lysander will get its own flufftext.

...you assume somehow that the people responsible for the CSM list liked 0-x entries any more than you do and that may not be a safe assumption to make.

I'd like to know what you mean by this ; You invite me to assume but don't provide any actual information.

What would you do to make the AMTL list more interesting?

Try to come up with a structural concept that provides something unique to the list.

Several fluff pieces about the Adeptus Mechanicus talk about armies being built around Tech Lords so why not work with that as a concept.

The player buys a Tech Lord formation and then is able to get a number of AM based upgrade and support choices for that formation. In addition they can then bring in a single Guard ally formation per Tech Lord.

The AM Lords are always squabbling and fighting amongst themselves so remove the Supreme Commander option from the list but give the army lots of Leaders.

The Ordinatus could also be a Tech Lord upgrade then to help limit their use in the list.

These concepts sound like good ideas for the Skitarii PDF army list.

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zombocom

Post subject: v3.11 comments

Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 5:17 pm

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(pixelgeek @ Jun. 03 2008,16:46)

QUOTE

Effectively it means that most people will have Warlords and Reavers as their core troops in the list.

Perhaps make the Imperator a scenario only unit as Neal suggests and then make the two unit Warhound formation a core choice?

Definately don't make the 2 warhound pack core. The whole point of the current system is that you have to take at least one battle titan, so you can't just do a warhound spamming army.

PG: Most of the concepts you seem to want for the list can be found in the Skitarii list. The Titan Legion list should be almost soley titans, ala the Titan comics.

For a more mixed list use the Skitarii one.

Oh, and can we keep the bitching about CSM to the CSM threads or PMs?

(E&C @ Jun. 03 2008,16:46)

QUOTE

If you insist, Mr. Moderator.

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pixelgeek

Post subject: v3.11 comments

Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 6:11 pm

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(Evil and Chaos @ Jun. 03 2008,09:05)

QUOTE

Sorry, but it didn't read like a joke.

Hence the smilie.

Most of the concepts you seem to want for the list can be found in the Skitarii list. The Titan Legion list should be almost soley titans, ala the Titan comics.

I don't think that is probable possible in Epic but it worth a try

The community made the choice to have a single knight type available

Are you going to include stats for the other Knights for those people that want to include them?

I'll probably focus on the Am and Skittarii lists then as the focus for the Titan Legion does indeed seem to be a bit outside of my interest.

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pixelgeek

Post subject: v3.11 comments

Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 6:14 pm

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(zombocom @ Jun. 03 2008,09:17)

QUOTE

Definately don't make the 2 warhound pack core. The whole point of the current system is that you have to take at least one battle titan, so you can't just do a warhound spamming army.

The list may need something then as I assume that most people won't have access to an Imperator and two core choices seems a bit lacking but then that is the reality of the Titan situation at the moment.

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: v3.11 comments

Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 6:14 pm

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Are you going to include stats for the other Knights for those people that want to include them?

Not in the tournament list.

Gamers who want to can freely mix in their Knightworld Titans in friendly games.

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: v3.11 comments

Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 6:15 pm

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It is two core units with a stunning variety of configurations available however, easily the most mutable core selection of any army list, as long as you like War Engines.

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pixelgeek

Post subject: v3.11 comments

Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 6:27 pm

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(Evil and Chaos @ Jun. 03 2008,10:14)

QUOTE

Are you going to include stats for the other Knights for those people that want to include them?

Not in the tournament list.

Assumed that. In a Collector's stats section though?

It is two core units with a stunning variety of configurations available however, easily the most mutable core selection of any army list, as long as you like War Engines.

Potentially. You need to remember that there are people that will be coming to the list with access only to the Titans that GW sells. So not as many options as grognards will have for their army :-)

Maybe those people wouldn't be as interested in the list though?

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semajnollissor

Post subject: v3.11 comments

Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 6:48 pm

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(pixelgeek @ Jun. 03 2008,12:27)

QUOTE

(Evil and Chaos @ Jun. 03 2008,10:14)

QUOTE

Are you going to include stats for the other Knights for those people that want to include them?

Not in the tournament list.

Assumed that. In a Collector's stats section though?

Isn't there going to be a separate knightworld list, too? That's what I thought was going to happen. The idea was to separate the huge AMTL v2 list into 3 separate v3 lists, 2 of which we are discussing here. The knight list is on the backburner for now.

Right?

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The_Real_Chris

Post subject: v3.11 comments

Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 6:57 pm

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PG since very few (no one?) seems to like the skitarri list if you'd test that lots and improve it, it would be great!

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Dwarf Supreme

Post subject: v3.11 comments

Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 7:01 pm

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(The_Real_Chris @ Jun. 03 2008,13:57)

QUOTE

PG since very few (no one?) seems to like the skitarri list if you'd test that lots and improve it, it would be great!

I like the Skitarii list. I just haven't gotten around to playing it yet. The last game I played was with the Knight list.

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