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Knights
Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Knights
PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 3:00 pm 
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Before we can incorporate Knights into Epic: Armageddon, I believe we need a discussion on their background, and how they fit into the modern 40k universe.

Knights were originally:
?Farm machinery use for herding dinosaurs, copied from Exodite technology, later taken to war by a feudal society?

This obviously does not fit with today's version of the 40k universe.


My first thought is that our modern Knights could represent a half-way house between Titans and industrial machinery, that most of their time would be used on Forgeworlds in tending to industrial processes or even in helping to maintain the Titans, but that when called to war they would be refitted with offensive weapons and used as an auxiliary ?light Titan? menagerie.

This draws from the original background, but updates it to sideline references to Xenos technology, use of Knights for herding dinosaurs; The Fuedal theme could perhaps be retained if it was entwined more with Adeptus Mechanicus familial groups.


Please feel free to go fluff-crazy in this thread.

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J0k3r
 Post subject: Knights
PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 4:51 pm 
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Ive always thought the knights would make more sense as manned exo suits that allow mechanicus adepts to work at the hearts of their forges.  Highly heat resistant, providing heavy armour in case things fall on the suit and able to lift huge loads.  You can easily imagine one hauling bars of adamantium straight from the fires of the forge or attaching turrets to leman russes.

The obvious analogy is:






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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Knights
PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 4:53 pm 
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Ive always thought the knights would make more sense as manned exo suits that allow mechanicus adepts to work at the hearts of their forges.


That's pretty much in-line with my thoughts.

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Dave
 Post subject: Knights
PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 5:10 pm 
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I think with some slight tweaks the old background can be made to work again.

Forgeworlds are going to need a lot of raw materials, whether it be ore, food, water etc.  Securing those resources would mean securing other planets which had them readily available.  The AM would obviously need to provide some form of protection and or trade stuffs to the planets for their resources as well.

The Knights could be what the AM trades to these planets. A feudal system could thrive in this kind of enviroment, where various merchants try to out do one another for trading rights with the AM.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Knights
PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 5:12 pm 
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I like that spin.  

In a similar vein, you could pitch the Knights as sort of the rural version/wing/affiliate of the AM.  They could be the yokel cousins out in the sticks.  Instead of forge worlds, they are the guys that have the pitiful little forge cities, and instead of the techno-bureaucracy and machine god cult of the "proper" AMTL, they have a feudal style system.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Knights
PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 5:12 pm 
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@Dave

Not bad in concept, but does free trade exist to that extent in the Imperium?

The background speaks more often in terms of tithing and tributes.

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Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: Knights
PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 5:16 pm 
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Removing the bit about drawing from Eldar technology is appropriate.

I would like to see the Feudal theme kept, because it fits with these machines being called Knights. I also like the idea that Knight households rule Ag planets.




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nealhunt
 Post subject: Knights
PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 5:20 pm 
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If you set up the Knight households as the ruling class on ag planets, then you could have them in control of the central, industrial hubs.  They could treat the surrounding ag areas in the same way the Space Marines treat the planets they run - sources of slave labor and proprietary recruiting grounds.

That would give you the industrial connections and the feudal structure.  It's not a huge break from prior background and it's definitely in keeping with 40K universe style.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Knights
PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 5:24 pm 
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@Neal

You would see the knights themselves as purpose built war machines, rather than adapted industrial machinery?


I'm strongly in favour of retaining the Feudal trappings.

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Dave
 Post subject: Knights
PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 5:35 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Mar. 07 2008,11:12)
QUOTE
@Dave

Not bad in concept, but does free trade exist to that extent in the Imperium?

The background speaks more often in terms of tithing and tributes.

The AM has always seemed to be fairly autonomous with regards to the Imperium's background.  Everyone seems fine to let them do their own thing and not interfere with their business.  In fact, the Horus Heresy books have stated that the Emperor entered into an alliance with the AM before the start of the Crusade.

To that end, I think the tithes leveled on words go to fuel the Imperium in general.  Whether they be regiments, raw materials and so on.  The AM trading in the manner I suggested would seem alright given their presence in the Imperium while not wholly being part of it.

I agree with Neal as well, I don't think the Knights should be industrial machines retro-fitted for war.  If I wanted to play them like that I'd play BattleTech ;).

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J0k3r
 Post subject: Knights
PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 5:48 pm 
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One thing that could make knights work in an agricultural setting is suggesting that the Adeptus Mechanicus have seeded agricultural planets with the machine cult.  These suits are embidiments of the machine spirit and are revered by the feudal clans and populace alike.  To pilot a suit is considered a great honour.

The adeptus offer favour to certain houses by gifting them new suits, however they keep the deeper secrets of their construction and maintenance secret after all none but a true adept can placate the machine spirit within each knight.  This also serves to keep the houses in check- after all if the blessing of the machine spirit is withdrawn then the suits will no longer work.  IE toe the line or the adeptus will pull the plug on your army :p

The adeptus mechanicus were also swift to identify other uses for such machines, employing similar suits in the hearts of their forgeworlds where their armour, strength and agility are of great use tending the fires of the machine god.  When called upon the adeptus mechanicus will send them into battle using their great rending claws, laser burners and retro fitted weapons to great effect.  Although these are not true knights and not piloted by such skilled crewmen, they are commonly reffered to as such by the common skitarii, and are still revered as minor avatars of the machine god.

EDIT- what im suggesting here is that you could have different variants of the same basic  concept, either creating a noble knight household tithed to the emperors service, or creating a far more cobbled together army for the last stand of a forgeworld.




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nealhunt
 Post subject: Knights
PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 6:10 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Mar. 07 2008,16:24)
QUOTE
@Neal

You would see the knights themselves as purpose built war machines, rather than adapted industrial machinery?

They could be both.  I think history has shown that there is frequently adaption of technology, then parallel use and development in both branches.  Knights and the normal, day-to-day machinery could be closely related but not interchangeable.

It may be just my perception, but feudalism implies a certain amount of class specialization, particularly with regards to the military.  I don't think that adapted industrial or farm equipment fits the implied specialization very well.  Dedicated machinery makes more sense to me.

I'm strongly in favour of retaining the Feudal trappings.


I think it's crucial.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Knights
PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 6:11 pm 
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It may be just my perception, but feudalism implies a certain amount of class specialization, particularly with regards to the military.  I don't think that adapted industrial or farm equipment fits the implied specialization very well.  Dedicated machinery makes more sense to me.


That's a very good point.

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ragnarok
 Post subject: Knights
PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 8:09 pm 
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I don't think that the idea that they are retro fitted industrial/farming machines turned to war is fitting to the Admech way of thinking.

If it is an oversized and impractical way of herding Grox then that is what it is to be used for.  There will be no bolting on weapons and anyone thinking of such things will be turned into servitors.

Remember the Ad mec are a backwards lot.  It took them over 250 year to decided that the lightning was a plane and that they should build it.

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Knights
PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:59 pm 
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I like the idea of the machinery developing from Forgeworld usage into military designs.  From there the military versions (Knights as we know them) could have spread to all types of locations, agri-planets, mixed industries, etc.  You don't even have to be that specific about it though.  In fact, making mention that there exact origins are still unclear gives it more character IMO.  Historians are unsure whether the military suits were developed in conjuction with the forgeworld machines or retrofitted from them to fight against the Eldar Knights found on contested planets. Yada yada yada.  You give a new spin to it without committing to anything - very 40K.

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