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Author: | The_Real_Chris [ Thu Apr 10, 2008 6:19 pm ] |
Post subject: | Comments on current list |
My quibbles with the list They are but few Quickly jotted down in between de-nit'ing my daughter! Well a few things I would question with the list. And where to start ![]() The list. I take it maxing on allies is advised? There are four core units, Warlord, Reaver and Warhound, plus sentinels. Thats really cut down ![]() Flak. Thunderbolts and carapace multi lasers? Thats a bit sparse. I know titans have that lovely story where they mirrored the British navy in WWII, finding out two late about airpower. But surely both before and since then they would have had flak or the story would be in every tale! Still, at least everyone will have to learn how to use thunderbolts well ![]() Navy - AM has its own Navy, so fliers could be in the support section. Skitari. I realy don't like these guys. 5 is a worse number in Epic compared to 6 for BP purposes making them harder to price properly. Also their stats are a bit wierd. They are apparently twice as tough as Orks and as tough as stormtroopers. Armour save in Epic is a function of physical protection, toughness, speed/size and training (as a destroyed stand ain't nessecerily dead, merely disrupted beyond combat effectiveness). Stormtroopers are elites trained from birth in a sci-fi fashion, skitari are a bunch of soldiers with better than flak armour and some red lights coming out of their eyes. 6+ save fits them more neatly between the two groups and puts them on par with Orks. There weapons are a bit odd as well, they have apparently twice the firepower of regular guard and are on par with marines. I did like the earlier lot with heavy bolters. Higher firepower, but the lack of AT was a nice touch if you consider now they couldn't blow up their nice Armour toys ![]() Cat blow up rules. Fine as a Legio specific rule but the book titans don't need the boost so make it this legio only. Plus does it apply to warhounds? Warhounds I'm sure after a few more dozen battle you will come to the conclusion that mono weapon fits are the best, 'cos they are ![]() Warhound - take two different weapons from the scout titan list Warhound pack - take any 4 weapons from the scout list This allows people with mono weapon warhounds to use them in pack, but single warhounds have to retain a bit of variation. Scout weapons Like the TLD idea. Since you have done that why not include the Rocket Launcher to keep those with them modeled on happy? As to effectiveness I will have to try out the TLD warhound, but it would also depend on other 60cm options if you get rid of single mono mission hounds (but 4 TLD warhound pack for 600 seems a bargin!). Weapon names Surely the twin barrel TLD can just be the turbo laser destructor? Apocalypse Missile Launcher - come on, its a silly name and more importantly a missile is a guided weapon. This thing is a big MRL, saturating an area with rockets, cluster munitions etc. I'm going to keep calling it a rocket launcher ![]() The weapons Gatlings are the equal of TLD ![]() Love the scout idea. I'll steal it for my legion ![]() Corvus pod ? useless for the list unles si wanted some kind of super transport for my allies. Allowing the troops onboard to fire or even better giving it something like +2EA FF would be better. CC Weapon equally useless. Why would anyone take it? Previous generic options were a lot better. Laser Burner ? bit tasty. With a list to exploit it (prob using allies/knights) would be a terror. Plasma cannon ? OK I see what you want to do with the weapons. Have fun. There was nothing wrong with the 4xMW4+ 60cm though ![]() Melta Cannon ? you really think its on par with a VC? Surely 25 points at the most. Quake Cannon ? still can't think how to use it well. 3BP Disrupt and 50 points I would use. Anything more cuts into the activations too much. Carapace landing Pad (its not a fire control centre!) - 150 is how much? Surely if you want to charge lots make it 50 points? But thats just not worth it. Its a thunderbolt Squadron and a free weapon! Support missiles ? overpriced. You should be aiming for three times as good as a basic weapon and twice as good as a heavy wepaon. But then again you have cut the price already to 75 which should be better ![]() Upgrades. Surely go back up to the previous set of options? Cut down why? Min maxing Well of course the ordinatus are there for extra activations? Can't see paying more than 175 for them so always use free weapons. And some things just don't work. One shot weapons for instance are far to pricy to go on. Otherwise I would lower the cost of weapons and raise the cost of the chassis. This does mean stuff like the scout weapons will never be chosen but they never would be unless it was just to min max the chassis. |
Author: | Evil and Chaos [ Thu Apr 10, 2008 7:17 pm ] |
Post subject: | Comments on current list |
Ahh, that stuff smells funny. The list. I take it maxing on allies is advised? Actually I think you're the first person who's really maxed out on Allies, and as a consequence I'll probably be dragging a lot of the Allies into the Support Formation area. Flak. Thunderbolts and carapace multi lasers? Thats a bit sparse. ...Still, at least everyone will have to learn how to use thunderbolts well Indeed! There was some talk about giving Titans (And by extention, Ordinatii) a dedicated AA weapon system mind you. Navy - AM has its own Navy, so fliers could be in the support section. I'm vaguely mulling over the idea of eliminating the Allies restriction altogether, and simply putting the Allies into the support slots... Skitari. I realy don't like these guys. 5 is a worse number in Epic compared to 6 for BP purposes making them harder to price properly. The number five has been picked due to fluff reasons (The Ad-Mech seem to like multiples or neat divisions of 100 for their formation sizes) Also their stats are a bit wierd. They are apparently twice as tough as Orks and as tough as stormtroopers. Armour save in Epic is a function of physical protection, toughness, speed/size and training (as a destroyed stand ain't nessecerily dead, merely disrupted beyond combat effectiveness). Stormtroopers are elites trained from birth in a sci-fi fashion, skitari are a bunch of soldiers with better than flak armour and some red lights coming out of their eyes. 6+ save fits them more neatly between the two groups and puts them on par with Orks. They have the same armour as Storm Troopers, and instead of superior training they have implanted bionics to increase their toughness, and often a mind wipe & programming so that all they know is how to conduct war (Well, they can probably eat too, but talking about the weather is definitely beyond their capabilities). In 40k, they are actually harder to kill than Storm Troopers, as they have the same armour (Carapace) plus they also have an Invulnerable save to represent their bionics... though I'm well aware of the perils of following 40k too closely. Their weapons are a bit odd as well, they have apparently twice the firepower of regular guard and are on par with marines. I did like the earlier lot with heavy bolters. Higher firepower, but the lack of AT was a nice touch if you consider now they couldn't blow up their nice Armour toys ![]() I'm not adverse to giving these guys Heavy Bolters instead of Autocannons, it feels quite in-theme (Leave the AT targets for the Rapiers or the Titans!). Cat blow up rules. Fine as a Legio specific rule but the book titans don't need the boost so make it this legio only. Plus does it apply to warhounds? Yes it would, but I think I'll be taking this rule out in the next version... Warhounds I'm sure after a few more dozen battle you will come to the conclusion that mono weapon fits are the best, 'cos they are I agree. Though I do like a Warhound Pack that has 2x Inferno guns & 2x VMBs. Epic being the way it is you want the most firepower as quickly as possible and having specialised units make this a lot easier. A fix taken from a previous list would be Warhound - take two different weapons from the scout titan list Warhound pack - take any 4 weapons from the scout list This allows people with mono weapon warhounds to use them in pack, but single warhounds have to retain a bit of variation. Noted. Scout weapons Like the TLD idea. Since you have done that why not include the Rocket Launcher to keep those with them modeled on happy? Because they don't have access to rocket launchers in 40k, and it's not too much of a counts-as stretch to say that they're Inferno Guns. OTOH, this is the War Gryphons army list, and not the rather unnamed list from 40k... ![]() Weapon names Surely the twin barrel TLD can just be the turbo laser destructor? Yeah probably... it was renamed so as to prep for the triple barelled turbolaser, only to find that the triple barrelled turbolaser is now known as a... Laser Blaster. Apocalypse Missile Launcher - come on, its a silly name and more importantly a missile is a guided weapon. This thing is a big MRL, saturating an area with rockets, cluster munitions etc. I'm going to keep calling it a rocket launcher ![]() You don't fancy us having a 'Ragnarok Quake Cannon' then? ![]() The weapons Gatlings are the equal of TLD ![]() I reckon they're worth about 20pts as compared to the TLD's 25pts, but they'll be going back up to 25pts in the next version... Corvus pod ? useless for the list unles si wanted some kind of super transport for my allies. Allowing the troops onboard to fire or even better giving it something like +2EA FF would be better. You don't think it's useful for the Skitarii army list? CC Weapon equally useless. Why would anyone take it? Previous generic options were a lot better. It's identical in stat to the previous version Power Fist, and now the titan is cheaper if you take a CCW... which means if it's useless now, it was doubly useless under v2. How would you fix the Power Fist type weapon? Laser Burner ? bit tasty. With a list to exploit it (prob using allies/knights) would be a terror. Maybe cut it back to +1 EA in a Firefight, or put it up to +25pts? Plasma cannon ? OK I see what you want to do with the weapons. Have fun. There was nothing wrong with the 4xMW4+ 60cm though I wanted the weapons to bear a clear relationship to each other (This has proved moderately popular so far), and was specifically bearing in mind your previous thoughts on the subject when I statted then up and costed them! Melta Cannon ? you really think its on par with a VC? Surely 25 points at the most. If it's not, then it needs to be more powerful. Quake Cannon ? still can't think how to use it well. 3BP Disrupt and 50 points I would use. Anything more cuts into the activations too much. I've found it to be an incredibly powerful weapon. Carapace landing Pad (its not a fire control centre!) - 150 is how much? Surely if you want to charge lots make it 50 points? But thats just not worth it. Its a thunderbolt Squadron and a free weapon! It assumes that you're going to take a Warlord Titan with 3x MRL's and a CLP, of course. Support missiles ? overpriced. Indeed, let's see how they go at 75pts. Upgrades. Surely go back up to the previous set of options? Cut down why? Because to start the balancing process I wanted to cut back on extranous options (AMTL v2 had a bigger army list than pretty much any other I can think of bar Lord I's Inquisition list). Which upgrades would you like to see returned? Min maxing Well of course the ordinatus are there for extra activations? Let's see what they do to the min-maxing when moved to the Support section, and stripped of one void shield? |
Author: | Tiny-Tim [ Thu Apr 10, 2008 7:59 pm ] |
Post subject: | Comments on current list |
Interesting proposals I look forward to the revised list. |
Author: | ragnarok [ Thu Apr 10, 2008 8:10 pm ] |
Post subject: | Comments on current list |
Why do people call it an Ragnarok Quake cannon. Now I don't mind a macro weapon baarage weapon named after me, but why the honour? It is just called a quake cannon in my version of Apocalypse. |
Author: | Evil and Chaos [ Thu Apr 10, 2008 9:09 pm ] |
Post subject: | Comments on current list |
t is just called a quake cannon in my version of Apocalypse. In everybody else's copy, it's called the Ragnarok Quake Cannon. ![]() |
Author: | ragnarok [ Thu Apr 10, 2008 9:17 pm ] |
Post subject: | Comments on current list |
(Evil and Chaos @ Apr. 10 2008,21:09) QUOTE t is just called a quake cannon in my version of Apocalypse. In everybody else's copy, it's called the Ragnarok Quake Cannon. ![]() I feel sooo special. Just making sure. Everyone is reading it on page 124 of the apocalypse book. |
Author: | Evil and Chaos [ Thu Apr 10, 2008 10:37 pm ] |
Post subject: | Comments on current list |
Obviously it needs testing but if you change too much at once it'll be impossible to guage its success. Okay, I'll keep it at 2 Voids... much of its utility was coming from the fact that it was an Ally after all. single system titans are very effective (especially if you know your opposition) Indeedy. ![]() |
Author: | PlushWombat [ Fri Apr 11, 2008 12:06 am ] |
Post subject: | Comments on current list |
Greetings all, Just a few thoughts and comments on the subject at hand. Personally, I favor some form of weapon limitations such as can be found in the way Appocalyspe is approaching titan weapon loadouts. ? I know that this view is not shared by the marjority of the board and will not be happening...so be it. ![]() However, to me, this approach seems to be a more realistic....in so much as you can be realistic in talking about 40 meter tall robots ![]() To address this issue, perhaps some form of limitation on weapons should considered such as limiting any weapon with a range of 75 cm+ to a maximum of two per titan. ?Those with a range of 60cm + to three per titan, and all other weapons would have no restrictions at all. If this is not to everyone's liking, perhaps some form carapace heavy mount could be included in the list ..say 25 pts per carapace mount, that would enable you to mount any weapon on the carapace position. ? Fluffwise this coud be explained as heavy mount reinforcement and additional ?stabilizers which would enable the titan to move and fire with the heavier weapon loadout. This of course only deals with ranged weapons. ?Titan close assault weapons such as power fists and chain fists would remain limited to arm mounts. As to which weapons would require the heavy mounting, I would say pretty much everything that currently isn't a scout titan weapon would require such a mounting. Just something to consider. ![]() As to whether there should be any such limitations at all on weapons remains to be seen and will be decided by the group...which is how it should be! ![]() Regards PlushWombat |
Author: | Evil and Chaos [ Fri Apr 11, 2008 12:36 am ] |
Post subject: | Comments on current list |
most of the heavy weapons...gatling blasters, quake cannons, volcano cannons, and plasma destructors, seem designed and intended for use as arm mounts. Not just seems, I now have it straight from the GW designers that that is the explicit reasoning behind the new weapon restrictions. If this is not to everyone's liking, perhaps some form carapace heavy mount could be included in the list ..say 25 pts per carapace mount, that would enable you to mount any weapon on the carapace position. Indeed, I had thought of the same idea. As to which weapons would require the heavy mounting, I would say pretty much everything that currently isn't a scout titan weapon would require such a mounting. I now have the list of what weapons are allowed on which titans. |
Author: | The_Real_Chris [ Fri Apr 11, 2008 1:08 am ] |
Post subject: | Comments on current list |
(Rug @ Apr. 10 2008,22:34) QUOTE On CC weapons. Surely VS. Nids they are a must (ie far from useless) That's only one list. But to be honest even then i would prefer 3-4 turns of firepower than 1-2 turns of a 1 D6 attack. (Evil and Chaos @ Apr. 11 2008,00:36) QUOTE most of the heavy weapons...gatling blasters, quake cannons, volcano cannons, and plasma destructors, seem designed and intended for use as arm mounts. Not just seems, I now have it straight from the GW designers that that is the explicit reasoning behind the new weapon restrictions. Well, its all new to me (and most of us, still stuck in the days of ultra configabul Titans!) ![]() But I see nothing wrong with having a Legion using that system. No reason not to have different ethos's with different titans. (Evil and Chaos @ Apr. 10 2008,19:17) QUOTE The number five has been picked due to fluff reasons (The Ad-Mech seem to like multiples or neat divisions of 100 for their formation sizes). What, they don't work in babalyonian base twelve? ![]() Because they don't have access to rocket launchers in 40k, and it's not too much of a counts-as stretch to say that they're Inferno Guns. OTOH, this is the War Gryphons army list, and not the rather unnamed list from 40k... ![]() Indeed ![]() Yeah probably... it was renamed so as to prep for the triple barelled turbolaser, only to find that the triple barrelled turbolaser is now known as a... Laser Blaster. The laser blaster returns! I reckon they're worth about 20pts as compared to the TLD's 25pts, but they'll be going back up to 25pts in the next version... Really? hows that? Because Warhounds can handle the infantry with VMB? Corvus pod ? useless for the list unles si wanted some kind of super transport for my allies. Allowing the troops onboard to fire or even better giving it something like +2EA FF would be better. You don't think it's useful for the Skitarii army list? No idea, the Skitari list would need more than a skim through because currently it looks too abusable so would need a bit more looking. I am just looking at the Titan list. But even then unless I had an abusable CC titan (prob a Reaver) I wouldn't use it. But if its there for a different list, no real idea. CC Weapon equally useless. Why would anyone take it? Previous generic options were a lot better. It's identical in stat to the previous version Power Fist, and now the titan is cheaper if you take a CCW... which means if it's useless now, it was doubly useless under v2. How would you fix the Power Fist type weapon? Laser Burner ? bit tasty. With a list to exploit it (prob using allies/knights) would be a terror. Maybe cut it back to +1 EA in a Firefight, or put it up to +25pts? What was wrong with the previous system? I thought that was Las Burner, +3EA FF MW Wrecker, +1EA CC, TK(d6), First Strike Power Fist, +3EA CC TK(d3) Chainfist, +5EA CC, MW Melta Cannon ? you really think its on par with a VC? Surely 25 points at the most. If it's not, then it needs to be more powerful. Why? Its already an instant kill weapon? Quake Cannon ? still can't think how to use it well. 3BP Disrupt and 50 points I would use. Anything more cuts into the activations too much. I've found it to be an incredibly powerful weapon. I'm sure it is. However I doubt I could win with that instead of more activations. It assumes that you're going to take a Warlord Titan with 3x MRL's and a CLP, of course. So its useless for a Reaver? And even then 875 for a 9bp Warlord artillary pece isn't a game winner (indeed the blitz is safe but your attack could be overwealmed a bit more easisly). Again the extra activation looks to be more attractive. Which upgrades would you like to see returned? Well, Vet Princepts at least? ![]() |
Author: | BlackLegion [ Fri Apr 11, 2008 1:25 am ] |
Post subject: | Comments on current list |
(ragnarok @ Apr. 10 2008,22:17) QUOTE (Evil and Chaos @ Apr. 10 2008,21:09) QUOTE t is just called a quake cannon in my version of Apocalypse. In everybody else's copy, it's called the Ragnarok Quake Cannon. ![]() I feel sooo special. Just making sure. Everyone is reading it on page 124 of the apocalypse book. Weeeell..obviously i only own the German version of Apocalypse. Here we have a Ragnar?k-Tremorgesch?tz (Ragnarok Quake Cannon) anda Apocalypse-Raketenwerfer (Apocalyspe Missile Launcher/Apocalypse Rocket Launcher). If you have the english version so please enlighten me about the correct english names ![]() |
Author: | Evil and Chaos [ Fri Apr 11, 2008 1:40 am ] |
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What, they don't work in babalyonian base twelve? ![]() Nope, they like Centuries. ![]() Really? hows that? Because Warhounds can handle the infantry with VMB? I don't find pips of AP to be worth as much as pips of AT, in general. What was wrong with the previous system? I thought that was Las Burner, +3EA FF MW Wrecker, +1EA CC, TK(d6), First Strike Power Fist, +3EA CC TK(d3) Chainfist, +5EA CC, MW Hmmm, I though my CCW stat was the same as the AMTL v2 Power Fist... in which case, consider that adopted for the next iteration. I cut down on the number of different CCWs because GW did so in 40k... in the cause of balance I didn't think it was a terrible direction to take the Epic list in too in this instance. Why? Its already an instant kill weapon? I've looked at the stat of the Meltacannon a second time... assuming you can support fire or enter an engagement every so often, I think it looks fine ATM. So its useless for a Reaver? And even then 875 for a 9bp Warlord artillary pece isn't a game winner (indeed the blitz is safe but your attack could be overwealmed a bit more easisly). Again the extra activation looks to be more attractive. I've now noted that there were movements in the base prices of the titans since V3.01 that have made it more expensive than it was originally. Consider it dropped to 100pts in the next version... and renamed too. ![]() Well, Vet Princepts at least? ![]() I'll add back the Vet Princeps. Only the Legate had a MWFF attack under v2, and since he's now 50pts cheaper, I don't think he should retain that ability. |
Author: | Evil and Chaos [ Fri Apr 11, 2008 10:45 am ] |
Post subject: | Comments on current list |
Noone told the Ad-Mech. ![]() They definitely deploy in round 100's. |
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