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ATML Legio name
pixelgeek
 Post subject: ATML Legio name
PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 5:48 pm 
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The name Legio Gryphonicus is a mixture of Latinate and Greek words. Well actually Latin and English words. ?It grates the nerves and it sounds horribly unrealistic :-)

The Latin version of the word gryphus. Which itself comes from the original greek Grypus.

The guys who wrote 40K have a really bad habit of doing this but any actual Imperial Scholar would not be mixing Greek words (or Greek derivative spellings) with Latin words.

The icus ending in the word is also the adjectival ending in Latin. It doesn't make a lot of sense in this case and just because the 40K design studio toss it around is no reason to use it :-)

I think that Legio Gryphus is more realistic and it sounds better to my mind




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: ATML Legio name
PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 5:54 pm 
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I think that Legio Gryphus is more realistic and it sounds better to my mind


Yup, but the Legio Gryphonicus has been part of 40k/Epic lore for almost two decades at this point ; I'm not going to change it.




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Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: ATML Legio name
PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 5:56 pm 
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I've never been a big fan of using pseudo-Latin names for titan legions. I usually refer to them by their names in English - Fire Wasps, Morning Stars, etc.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: ATML Legio name
PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 6:01 pm 
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Yup, their English name is the 'War Gryphons'.

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pixelgeek
 Post subject: ATML Legio name
PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 6:51 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Jun. 02 2008,09:54)
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Yup, but the Legio Gryphonicus has been part of 40k/Epic lore for almost two decades at this point ; I'm not going to change it.

Then perhaps don't use it and refer to it as the War Gryphons list then as the name really sounds stupid. Harry Potter fan fiction stupid

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: ATML Legio name
PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 7:19 pm 
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Point 1 - They've been called the Legio Gryphonicus for two decades, I'm not going to change that without a huge and driving reason.

Point 2 - The language of the Imperium is full of schoolboy latinate/greecio cut-n-shuts. This is no different.

Point 3 - Titan Legions always have had two names, their 'high gothic' name and their 'common' name, just like we call the Imperium's greatest soldiers both 'Space Marines' and 'Adeptus Astartes' (A name that makes no litteral sense, by the way).

Point 4 - If I ignore the Legio Gryphonnicus name, lots of people will be miffed as to why I'm changing the name.

Harry Potter fan fiction stupid


Your point has been noted, and your comments are most welcome ; I will never put you on ignore, or PM you obscenities, no matter how you disagree with my opinion.




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Moscovian
 Post subject: ATML Legio name
PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 7:44 pm 
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I actually don't mind greek-latin mixes.  After 40,000 years you can imagine that the linguistically things would be pretty chewed up.  The fact that they cannot even figure out much of what happened 20,000 years before tells me the scholars wouldn't be able to tell you that one word was Greek and one word was Latin.  Heck, they probably wouldn't even know what Greek or Latin was!

Of course I don't think that anyone really thought it that far through and they were just trying to give everything an 'ancient' feel to it.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: ATML Legio name
PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 8:49 pm 
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In the face of the multitudinous butchering of all manner of historical and literary references committed by GW, is a mix of latin-greek-germanic actually a big deal?

========

'Adeptus Astartes' (A name that makes no litteral sense, by the way).


Sure it does.  

"Adept" from OED: B. n. [In med.L. adeptus was used subst. and assumed by alchemists that professed to have attained the great secret. In Eng. the L. form was at first used, with pl. adepti.] Hence, ?He that is completely skilled in all the secrets of his art.? J. One that has attained to proficiency in anything.

The Space Marines are clearly skilled in the ways of an ancient eastern Mediterranean goddess of love and war, Astartes.   ???

Or not.  :D

===

I would actually guess that it was some sort of half-informed attempt to render them as the ultimate followers of a god of war.  Somehow, though, it doesn't quite work.  Maybe that's because the primary nature of Astarte is more sexual/reproductive than violent.

Junky, but not any worse than the Conrad Kurze, primarch of the Night Lords gross and rather daft ripoff of Heart of Darkness/Apocalypse Now.




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ragnarok
 Post subject: ATML Legio name
PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 8:57 pm 
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I have no problems with gothic being a mixture of latin and greek.  English is a mixture of alsorts of languages, we took all of the best bits.

I also believe that astartes is gothic for stars (so they make up words too :D ).  So Adeptus astartes means masters of the stars.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: ATML Legio name
PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 9:01 pm 
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Junky, but not any worse than the Conrad Kurze, primarch of the Night Lords gross and rather daft ripoff of Heart of Darkness/Apocalypse Now.


I think the funniest GW naming tidbit is Corax, the Primarch of the Raven Guard. Corax literally meaning 'raven' in Latin.

The last thing Corax said before disappearing (off to wherever he went when he disappeared) was 'Nevermore'...

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pixelgeek
 Post subject: ATML Legio name
PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 12:55 am 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Jun. 02 2008,11:19)
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Point 4 - If I ignore the Legio Gryphonnicus name, lots of people will be miffed as to why I'm changing the name.

You wouldn't be changing it. You'd just not be using one of the two names they have :-)

War Gyrphons is a perfectly acceptable name and has the benefit of it not sounding like someone in high school made it up for their D&D campaign :-)

I have a few other comments I wanted to post as well but thought I'd get the "name" problem out of the way as it really isn't relevant to any of the game related aspects.

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pixelgeek
 Post subject: ATML Legio name
PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 1:59 am 
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(nealhunt @ Jun. 02 2008,12:49)
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In the face of the multitudinous butchering of all manner of historical and literary references committed by GW, is a mix of latin-greek-germanic actually a big deal?

Obviously you didn't minor in Linguistics :-)

BTW my favourite GW naming is the Dark Angels being named after a homoerotic poem.

"The Dark Angels have been a part of the 40k mythology (or as Games Workshop revealingly prefer to call it, IPR) since the earliest period of the game. One of the Space Hulk extensions featured their Deathwing Terminator company. They seem to have got their name from a somewhat dodgy homoerotic poem, The Dark Angel, written by tormented Victorian poet Lionel Johnson, after whom the Primarch Lion El?Jonson seems to be named (though I?m betting they didn?t know all the background when they set this all up, and just thought the poem was gothic quasi sci-fi)."

http://www.theotherpages.org/poems/johns01.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lionel_Johnson

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Justiniel
 Post subject: ATML Legio name
PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 9:23 am 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Jun. 02 2008,21:01)
QUOTE
Junky, but not any worse than the Conrad Kurze, primarch of the Night Lords gross and rather daft ripoff of Heart of Darkness/Apocalypse Now.


I think the funniest GW naming tidbit is Corax, the Primarch of the Raven Guard. Corax literally meaning 'raven' in Latin.

The last thing Corax said before disappearing (off to wherever he went when he disappeared) was 'Nevermore'...

LOL

Interesting point re the Dark Angels, didn't know that one.

I'm not a linguist either so I'm not all that bothered by the contortions, howevr I do have some poetic sensibilities and find the name doesn't exactly trip off the tongue.

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Reaver
 Post subject: ATML Legio name
PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 10:09 am 
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(pixelgeek @ Jun. 02 2008,17:48)
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any actual Imperial Scholar would not be mixing Greek words (or Greek derivative spellings) with Latin words.

I have to take exception to this, PG - even today we do it all the time.

When naming genera and species, taxonomists regulary mix Greek, Latin, English and even Chinese to render a descriptive name.

So if it's scientifically acceptable now, I've got no problem with it in a totally fictional game world.


As to the Dark Angels thing, Andy Chambers told me they knew what the poem was about, and just thought it was a bit of a laugh - like most GW fluff of the time. It was one of the inspirations behind giving the Dark Angels robes - apparently, they'd sit around the Design Studio and giggle at the thought of Space Marines in dresses!

I can't believe anyone would be that immature - right, I'm off to paint some more toy soldiers. ?:;):
Regards,
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J0k3r
 Post subject: ATML Legio name
PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 10:39 am 
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Interesting discussion.  For the record Astartes is also a genus of mollusc.  Maybe it refers to the marines armour- lit: adepts of the molluscy shell?

:p :D




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