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Unified set of Weapon stats

 Post subject: Unified set of Weapon stats
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 6:25 am 
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With a bunch of list suggestions now floating around the best solution would be...
to have a agreed set of weapon stats for the 'core' weapons.

Then everyone can publish there own Titan legion in a similar way to the marine chapters.

As an aside sticking stuff like power fist/power ram should be avoided. Use the counts as in your list instead. it allows others to do different stats for the weapon you aren't using.

The other poll shows quite clearly I think what people wish to see as the relationship between the various weapons.

Most possible stat lines have been tested by now so I thought we could gather them all together and if not come to a consensus at least see where the areas of disagreement are. I've stuck for weapons we don't agree on the common areas of agreement after the name.

Warhound Weapons
Agreed
Plasma Blastgun, 45cm, 2xMW2+, Slow Fire (published)
Vulcan Mega Bolter, 45cm, 4xAP3+/AT5+ (published)
Rocket Launcher, 45cm, BP3

Disagreed
Inferno gun - Ignore Cover
Two main options I think so far, either use the silly template (not a leading statement at all that) and AP2+/AT6+ IC or give it 30cm, BP3, Ignore Cover
'Scout' Turbo Laser Destructor - 45cm, 4x
Most want AP5+/AT3+. It was debated a couple of years back (I think) and you can see for yourself that this is a lot better than a Plasma Blastgun. AP5+/AT4+ is  I think a bit better, unless you wish to see an end to the blastgun.

'Tactical/main/common' weapons
Agreed
Gatling Blaster, 60cm, 4xAP4+/AT4+ (published)
Turbo Laser Destructor, 60cm, 4xAP5+/AT3+ (published)
Multiple Rocket Launcher, 60cm, BP3 (published)

Disagreed
Inferno Gun - Might be agreed
30cm, 3BP, Ignore Cover, Disrupt, though this could be somewhat weak and the weapon could be MW instead.
Plasma Cannon - 60cm, Slow Fire
What to hit values though? 4xMW4+, 3xMW3+ etc etc. Essentially a matter of balance and tactics.
Reaver Mega Bolter - AP3+/AT5+
Three main options (discounting the FF option which Blarg has to convince me more about!), 45cm 5xAP3+/AT5+, 45cm 6xAP3+/AT5+ (really a lot better than the GB), 60cm 4xAP3+/AT5+
Melta Cannon - 30cm, TK, EA FF
Disagreement lies in how many shots (one or two) and at what to hit, how many FF attacks (1 or 2) and how much TK damage. For example, 30cm, 2xTK(1)4+, +1EA FF TK(1) or 30cm, TK(d3)3+, +1EA FF (TK1)

'Support/big/better' weapons
Agreed
Volcano Cannon, 90cm, TK(d3)2+ (published)
Deathstrike Missile (published)

Disagreed
Quake Cannon
Well, pretty much agreed. Range 90-120, BP I think has to be 3 so it scales then it comes down to Slow Fire or not?
Might need a complete rethink however and become something other than MW and Slow fire? (Say range 90, BP3, IC - it is a quake cannon after all :) ).
Plasma Destructor
Different ideas for this. Simply make it a better version of the 'Cannon, make it for a specific role (sustain, double, advance etc) or make it a faster firing version of the VC (so choose between several TK shots slow fire or one multi TK shot).
Support missiles - One Shot
I'm not fussed as I just would use a generic one :)
They are Barrage, Warp, Harpoon and Vortex

Assault Weapons
Agreed
Las Burner, +3EA FF MW
Wrecker, +1EA CC, TK(d6), First Strike

Disagreed
Power Fist - Is this actually agreed at +3EA CC TK(d3)?
Chainfist - EA CC, MW
+4, +5, +6 (plus +5 is I think the best as otherwise you get more kills than a power fist against 90% of targets, TK is not twice as good as MW!)
Corvus Assault Pod - Transport (8)
Can the troops inside FF out? Does it have FF attacks itself? Some flexibility here, a list could have both a head and arm, whereas in another they could be a 'system' and one choice with different abilities.

Upgrades
Most of these aren't 'core' and a great way like Chroma's to distinguish between titan legios.
Agreed
Carapace landing Pad, gives indirect to BP weapons (carapace)
Sacred icon, gives inspiring
Carapace Multi Laser, 30cm, AP5+/AT6+/AA5+

Disagreed
Devotional Bell
Well not too critical this. Very easy to give different name and have different ones in each list. Could say each devotional item is unique to each Legio.

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 Post subject: Unified set of Weapon stats
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 9:08 am 
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How about making the Inferno Gun a Warhound only weapon? rerasoning is thatit is simply a to "light" weapon for a Battletitan but ideal for a Scouttitan.


Personally i'm for a Corvus Assault System. Two  Corvus Assault Pods and a Corvus Assault Head. Transport (12) in total. Each Corvus Assault Pod could have an Assault Cannon (even a twin-linked one).

The Plasma weapons i would make so:
Plasma Blastgun 45cm 2xMW2+ slow-firing
Plasma Cannon 60cm 3xMW2+ slow-firing
Plasma Destructor 75cm 3xMW2+(TK1) slow-firing
With a restirction of Plasma Destructors to Warlords and that each Titan can only mount a maximum of two plasma based weapons.
After all these weapons are fueled by the Titans own reactor. He can't blow out  to much and still expect to be operable :)

Devotional Bell: in pasteditions of Epic each Legio had one and only one Custodian Titan. He had a Devotional Bell replacing his Carapace weapons which gives a morale boost to nearby friendly units and an advantage against Daemons.
The Custodian Titan may also come with a Custodian Head which had a template-based psychic attack. The Bell was free but the head had apoints cost.
So i would suggest:
Custodian Titan as an 0-1 Upgrade for a single Warlord Titan with Veteran Princeps replacing his Carapace mounts. It gives Inspiring to all formations in 30cm and all Daemons in 30cm will loose their "no blastmarkers if killed" ability. Cost: Free.
Custodian Head: Upgrade only available for a Titan with Devotional Bell. The Titan gains a 60cm 1BP TK(1) attack (or 2BP MW perhabs) for the Custodian Head.  Cost: 50pts?





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 Post subject: Unified set of Weapon stats
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 10:14 am 
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(Hena @ Dec. 06 2007,13:07)
QUOTE
So it would be tactical / support system as in AMTL v2?

Nah, it would be whatever system you want. Chroma's 3 HP, Blargs grade nine, the v2 Support.

Idea is the system becomes then an army list system and the weapons the units (to compare to a regular list).

For me the flamer template to Warhound inferno gun is a good way to distinguish it from others. Could be AP2+ as well (though then it would always hit with 3+, which is quite nasty).


Well comes down to do you want a flame type weapon or some sort of sci-fi spray thing.

Note that the Inferno Gun is better against infantry targets than the Turbo Laser. But sure I have tendency to not use the Plasma on warhound.

Yes, it probably is if you can get in range, indeed with its design it should be better than the TL.

Is AMTLv2 with 4BP then bad? I've used it few times and the range makes it quite restricted to use. Reavers aren't as fast as Warhounds. With 3BP I probably wouldn't use it if it had less than 45cm range.

It doesn't scale, having two is a 50% increase in firepower instead of 100%.


(BlackLegion @ Dec. 06 2007,14:08)
QUOTE
How about making the Inferno Gun a Warhound only weapon? rerasoning is thatit is simply a to "light" weapon for a Battletitan but ideal for a Scouttitan.

My favourite painted Reaver has an Inferno gun :)

Personally i'm for a Corvus Assault System. Two  Corvus Assault Pods and a Corvus Assault Head. Transport (12) in total. Each Corvus Assault Pod could have an Assault Cannon (even a twin-linked one).

That solution would presumably be a list specific one, rather than a generic one.

Plasma Blastgun 45cm 2xMW2+ slow-firing
Plasma Cannon 60cm 3xMW2+ slow-firing
Plasma Destructor 75cm 3xMW2+(TK1) slow-firing

Your cannon is rather powerful. The Destructor would be an interesting alternative to the VC, reaver only though with that range. Prob also a bit to powerful - 6 TK shots vs 3 TK (d3), I would take the 6.

With a restirction of Plasma Destructors to Warlords and that each Titan can only mount a maximum of two plasma based weapons.
After all these weapons are fueled by the Titans own reactor. He can't blow out  to much and still expect to be operable :)

That would be a restriction based on that list system hopefully.

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 Post subject: Unified set of Weapon stats
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 12:38 pm 
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Most want AP5+/AT3+. It was debated a couple of years back (I think) and you can see for yourself that this is a lot better than a Plasma Blastgun. AP5+/AT4+ is  I think a bit better, unless you wish to see an end to the blastgun.


I'd like to see the AP go up to 6+ if that were the case.

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 Post subject: Unified set of Weapon stats
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 1:42 pm 
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Here are the Plasma Weapon stats from my White Knights v1.1

Plasma Blastgun /45cm /2 x MW2+ /Slow Firing, Arm, Weapon Cost 1
Plasma Cannon /60cm /6 x MW4+ /Slow Firing, Carapace, Weapon Cost 2
Plasma Destructor /75cm /4 x MW4+ /Slow Firing, Titan Killer, Carapace, Weapon Cost 3

Notes: Plasma Weapons may either fire half their shots and still have half ?in reserve? for next turn, or fire all shots and not shoot next turn at all. Due to the drain on its plasma reactor, a Titan may only mount a maximum of two plasma weapons.

I think anything over two MW2+ shots is just too nasty... "2+" is overly effective. ?The above stats are almost a direct port of the NetEPIC plasma weapons, so I thought that might be a good start.

Why MW4+ on "better" weapons? ?Well, when the Titan wants to use them effectively, it has to stand still (Sustain Fire), if it's moving fast (Double) it has less plasma to dedicate to the weapons.

Thoughts?

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 Post subject: Unified set of Weapon stats
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 3:29 pm 
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I'd move the Plasma Cannon to 4x MW 4+, otherwise I like. It makes the Plasma Cannon as good as the Plasma Blastgun on a double, and better on an advance/sustain. Plasma Destructor then becomes a faster-firing less-accurate Volcano Cannon which has Slow Firing. Better against general targets, but worse against WEs.

For the Inferno Gun: My suggestion would be 45cm, 3 BP, IC. This would make it 15cm shorter range then the MRL, but let it shoot at infantry in base-to-base with tanks just as well as not. 30cm is REALLY short for a battle titan, and you're almost certain to have to double to use it. This also maintains that most battle-titan weapons move up 1 range category compared to the warhound versions of the same. The Warhound one, I don't really care if it uses the template or BP, just so long as -something- changes, because in the v2 list it's totally worthless.

For the Quake Cannon, as an alternative to making it MW, perhaps it should be more about sewing confusion and difficulty into the enemy. 90cm range, 3 BP, Disrupt. Basically fires huge shells which create a lot of flash-bang at very long range, but aren't terribly more lethal then the MRL's massive numbers of smaller rockets. I tend to imagine a hail of huge artillery shells the size of tanks to be more disruptive to morale then a hail of rockets, myself! This would also get away from the problem I've seen with Quake Cannons being rediculously good at killing mechanized infantry with a CLP and sustain fire.






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 Post subject: Unified set of Weapon stats
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 3:36 pm 
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(Ilushia @ Dec. 06 2007,14:29)
QUOTE
For the Inferno Gun: My suggestion would be 45cm, 3 BP, IC. This would make it 15cm shorter range then the MRL, but let it shoot at infantry in base-to-base with tanks just as well as not. 30cm is REALLY short for a battle titan, and you're almost certain to have to double to use it.

If you make the "heavy" Inferno Gun 30cm, and *4BP*, you get the "stretch" of the second template to extend your range... with IC, that's still hitting Inf on a 5+ when doubling.

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 Post subject: Unified set of Weapon stats
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 3:49 pm 
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The problem with 4 BP is that there's rarely a reason to mount more then one of them. As with 8 BP you gain 1 blast template and 1 blast marker. Basically a 50% increase in effectiveness, as the 1 blast marker isn't gonna be a big deal most of the time compared to the effects of Disrupt with 2 blast templates to begin with. The only advantage I see for 4 BP is that it allows a Warlord armed with 4 of these things to reach 16 BP. Which would potentially allow placement of 4 extra blast markers, along with 3 disrupting templates. Which would be pretty powerful, too, but I doubt as good as one might get from other options. In any case I'd move towards 3 BP, myself. So here's an odd question about BP weapons: Can you intentionally fire on an out of range formation, place the first blast template at the edge of your range and place the second further towards that unit to reach them?


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 Post subject: Unified set of Weapon stats
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 4:04 pm 
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(Ilushia @ Dec. 06 2007,14:49)
QUOTE
The problem with 4 BP is that there's rarely a reason to mount more then one of them.

I, honestly, don't see that as a "problem"... one flamethrower should be enough on chassis, unless you want a "super flamer" Titan.

In any case I'd move towards 3 BP, myself. So here's an odd question about BP weapons: Can you intentionally fire on an out of range formation, place the first blast template at the edge of your range and place the second further towards that unit to reach them?
I believe a weapon "out of range" always missed and you place no template.
test

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 Post subject: Unified set of Weapon stats
PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 8:46 pm 
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To preface my remarks, I don't think that it's necessary to have many weapon systems scale up for all the chassis.  I think we should limit it to the weapons that were historically available rather than expanding the principal to other systems.  Instead, I think a weapon point/grade/hardpoint system is the best way to model allowing a battle titan taking a "scout" weapon.

For the few weapons that are available across chassis types and need to be scaled (Plasma, Missile Launcher and Turbolaser), it would be nice to come up with some sort of semi-standard scale up and naming conventions.  For example, the largest plasma weapon is the "destructor" and the battle titan turbolaser is the "destructor" so maybe the smaller ones could share descriptor designations as well.  Given the fondness for alliteration, maybe "Destroyer" could be a designation for the scout-level weapons (or whatever, but I used "Destroyer" below).

Finally, if possible, Warhound weapons should be configured to encourage firing on the move, so fewer shots and higher to-hit values would be appropriate.  I think that based on the historical weapon availability and general background considerations, it's reasonable to give Warhounds a more AP-oriented set of weapons to choose from.

===

Plasma:Why MW4+ on "better" weapons?  Well, when the Titan wants to use them effectively, it has to stand still (Sustain Fire), if it's moving fast (Double) it has less plasma to dedicate to the weapons.

I think Chroma has an excellent point with this.  High quality shots promote firing on the move.  More volume of low quality shots promote slowing down to maximize fire.  This approach would harness the basic firing mechanics of the game to approximate the effects of all the plamsa fire/move special rule restrictions from SM/TL/NetEpic.

===

Warhound Weapons
Plasma Blastgun - 45cm, 2xMW2+, Slow Fire (published)
Vulcan Mega Bolter - 45cm, 4xAP3+/AT5+ (published)
Inferno gun ? Flamer AP3+/AT6+ IC or 30cm, BP3, Ignore Cover [one mode only, not an OR weapon]
Turbo Laser "Destroyer" - 45cm (60cm?), 3xAP5+/AT3+
"Destroyer" Rocket Launcher - 45cm, BP3

Turbolaser - makes no sense if you compare unmodified to-hit values, but with -1 to-hit or worse it's clearly the best AT option outside a Blastgun alpha strike (and an end of turn/beginning of turn Double/Sustain combo kills the Blastgun).  I'm not sure that's a sufficient niche to consider it balanced, which is why I included a range option.

'Tactical/main/common' weapons (to borrow TRC's terminology)
Gatling Blaster - 60cm, 4xAP4+/AT4+ (published)
Turbo Laser Destructor - 60cm, 4xAP5+/AT3+ (published)
Multiple Rocket Launcher - 60cm, BP3 (published)
Plasma Cannon - 60cm, 4xMW4+, slow fire [possibly 6x MW5+]
Melta Cannon - 30cm, 2xMW4+, TK(1), +1EA FF (TK1)

Plasma - I think the 4xMW4+ is pretty balanced.  It doesn't quite double kills compared to the Gatling Blaster but it has alpha strike ability.  OTOH, 6xMW5+ averages the same number of hits without mods, but strongly encourages Sustain Fire.  The problem is negative total mods are pretty common in the game, so it might suffer overall.

'Support/big/better' weapons - based on the poll, these should be slightly better and/or fulfill a dedicated role
Volcano Cannon - 90cm, TK(d3)2+ (published)
Quake Cannon - 90cm, BP3,  Disrupt
Plasma Destructor - 75cm, 4xMW4+, TK, Slow Fire

The Quake Cannon might be too much - range increase and Disrupt as compared to ML - but unless many weapons on the same titan have increased range, range doesn't mean much.

Plasma v Volcano - Destructor has slightly more hits and alpha strike capability versus Volcano's d3 damage.  Modifiers to to-hit rolls shift their relative effectiveness dramatically - better to-hit strongly favors the Destructor, worse favors Volcano.  As noted above, negative net mods tend to be a bit more common in actual play.

Assault Weapons
Las Burner, +3EA FF MW
Wrecker/Ram, +1EA CC, TK(d6), First Strike
Power Fist/Claw - +3EA CC TK(d3)
Chainfist/Saw - +5EA CC MW

Transport - Needs discussion on what the troops can do and possible assault benefits.  I would lean towards testing the old CI rule "Up to [half] transported stands may shoot with ranged weapons or use their firefight or close combat values in an assault."
Corvus Assault Pod - Transport (8)
Corvus Assault Head ? Transport (4)
Imperator Bastions ? Transport (12?)

Support missiles - One Shot, Unlimited Range, Indirect Fire - worthy of a dedicated discussion.  Should get ~3 rounds of firepower compared to tactical weapons or ~2 compared to Support, imho.  Could also be broken up into Tactical/Support options if needed for balance.
Deathstrike Missile (published)
Barrage - should be guaranteed 3 templates, probably IC or Disrupt - 6+2d3 BP (8-12), IC
Harpoon - taking control of enemy units is bad.  The "keeps doing damage" option mentioned seems good but requires tracking over multiple turns.  Another possiblity would be low level TK combined with high chance of inflicting critical.
Vortex - BP and TK, along the lines of the Cobra
Warp - Not sure if this should be used.  Modest TK (d3?) and bypass all shields/fields would seem reasonable but begs the question of why you wouldn't just strip shields and Deathstrike.

Upgrades and Auxiliary systems - "head" weapons are really symbolic of broader (but still minor) changes throughout the titans.
Carapace landing Pad - indirect to BP weapons
Sacred icon - Inspiring
Carapace Multi Laser - 2x 30cm, AP5+/AT6+/AA5+
CC Head/System - +3EA CC
FF Head/System - +2EA FF
Gun Head/System ? 45cm 2x AP5+/AT5+

Devotional Bell - Probably needs dedicated discussion as well.  Since it takes up 2 carapace mounts and has little in the way of actual weapon attacks that can be attributed to it, I think it needs to be combined with the Castellan Head/psyker abilities as in the older material.  Something generally similar to the Eldar Warlock abilities (BP TK, EA TK, Inspiring) would seem to be about right for a system that takes up 2 carapace slots and a head slot.  Plus, a Veteran Princeps would be required.

Extra Movement/Extra Shields - A system to allow this would be nice but I don't think it's necessary for an AMTL list.  Should an ATIII project ever materialize, I think it would be almost mandatory.

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 Post subject: Unified set of Weapon stats
PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:01 pm 
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I think neralhunt summed it all up nice :) Only with the last paragraph i have some objections against becaue i very like the old Titan configurations ;)

For weapon namings of the "Scout" weapons: Turbo-Laser Destroyer sounds cool. The "scout" Multiple Rocket Launcher could simply be named Rocket Launcher to differentiate it from the Multiple Rocket Launcher of the Battletitans.

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 Post subject: Unified set of Weapon stats
PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:10 pm 
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Destroyer MRL sounds pretty good to me. With the larger one being the Destructor MRL. Otherwise I think Neal's got it right more or less when it comes to weapon stats though. Definitely looks good from where I'm sitting anyway!


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 Post subject: Unified set of Weapon stats
PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:12 pm 
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IIRC the new Apocalypse book has given some appended names to some of the weapons.

Can't for the life of me remember them though.

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