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[Army List] White Knights Titan Legion v1.1
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=11168		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Chroma [ Thu Dec 06, 2007 1:50 pm ]
Post subject:  [Army List] White Knights Titan Legion v1.1
I've put together a v1.1 for the White Knights... dropped the Russes, tweaked unit and weaponsstats and added a few things.

One thing to note with the list: the way the point values are set up, the BTS goal will *always* be a Titan formation, which I think is important.  I do like ragnarok's "God Machine" special rule, and I might incorporate something like that in a future version.

As I mentioned in the weapons thread, the Plasma weapons are based on the NetEPIC stats, just to try something different.

And no Vortex Missile... yet.  *laugh*
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Thu Dec 06, 2007 1:57 pm ]
Post subject:  [Army List] White Knights Titan Legion v1.1
I'd be happier to see more continuity between the different Plasma weapons... as it is each one feels like a different type of weapon.
Author:  Ilushia [ Thu Dec 06, 2007 3:07 pm ]
Post subject:  [Army List] White Knights Titan Legion v1.1
The only problem I see with those Plasma Cannon stats is that in a 3 turn game they're flat out better then the Gatling Blaster. Same number of shots/hits, but gain MW! I might suggest cutting them down to 4 shots at MW 4+. That way the larger weapons hit better when advancing/sustaining compared to the Warhound, but about the same on a double. Makes them more over-all lethal (especially the Plasma Destructor!)
Author:  Chroma [ Thu Dec 06, 2007 3:28 pm ]
Post subject:  [Army List] White Knights Titan Legion v1.1

(Ilushia @ Dec. 06 2007,14:07)
QUOTE
The only problem I see with those Plasma Cannon stats is that in a 3 turn game they're flat out better then the Gatling Blaster.

I think one of the overlooked advantages of the Gatling Blaster, especially in this context, is that you can select the *type* of target you want to hit in, rather common, mixed formations, while the Plasma Cannon always has to go front to back (certainly, the in cover/out of cover thing plays into this as wel).

Same number of shots/hits, but gain MW! I might suggest cutting them down to 4 shots at MW 4+.
Well, like I said, I was working off the NetEPIC stats... but change/tweaking is always a possibility...
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Thu Dec 06, 2007 6:43 pm ]
Post subject:  [Army List] White Knights Titan Legion v1.1
Fundementally the same problems as before, compounded by the new weapons.

I'd go for one of the following lists.

4 Reavers, 8 Plasma Cannon, 4 las Burner, 3 Vet, 1 Legate), 4x+2 Void Shields, 3 CML
2 Recon

Just to see if the enemy can deal with the assault from hell :) Okay bit over the top, would prob only use three reavers but you get the point.

3 Ordinati small, Quake cannon
1 Thunderbolts
3 Warhounds
1 Reaver, 2 Plasma Cannon, Inferno gun, CML
1 Warhound Pack

Then of course some sort of warhound swarm list.
Author:  Chroma [ Thu Dec 06, 2007 7:16 pm ]
Post subject:  [Army List] White Knights Titan Legion v1.1

(The_Real_Chris @ Dec. 06 2007,17:43)
QUOTE
Then of course some sort of warhound swarm list.

Are Warhound packs in a Titan Legion list underpriced at 500?

A pair is the same DC and Void Shields as a Reaver, have weaker weapons, but greater movement, suffer more from Blast markers, but regenerate shields better.

Would people take a Warhound Pack (Two Warhounds) if it cost 550 points?  What about 600?

I do think that a Titan Legion would, occasionally, just field Warhounds as the Titans in a force, so what can be done to allow that instead of arbitrarily restricting it?
Author:  Chroma [ Thu Dec 06, 2007 7:18 pm ]
Post subject:  [Army List] White Knights Titan Legion v1.1

(The_Real_Chris @ Dec. 06 2007,17:43)
QUOTE
4 Reavers, 8 Plasma Cannon, 4 las Burner, 3 Vet, 1 Legate), 4x+2 Void Shields, 3 CML
2 Recon

Othe than the Void shield enhancement, can't any list do something like that?

The Plasma Cannon can easily be dropped to 4x shots, I just wanted to replicate the NetEPIC versions this time around.
Author:  Ilushia [ Thu Dec 06, 2007 8:07 pm ]
Post subject:  [Army List] White Knights Titan Legion v1.1
If you wanna allow all-warhounds legally without being broken my suggestion is leave Warhounds as a core formation BUT don't allow secondary formations to back them up. The problem occurs when you can field Warhound Packs which allow you to take 2 Support Formations each. Since then you can take 3 Warhound Packs one with Scout for 1600, 4 independent Warhounds for 1100 and whatever you can squeeze into the 300 remaining points (Something like a Skitarii Platoon w/ Chimeras perhaps?). That'd be eight activations, and tons of warhounds running all over the place.

Instead to field all-warhounds you'd have to take 6 Warhound Packs, still 12 warhounds, but only 6 activations and if you want a specific BTS you'll have to drop a pack for some upgrades somewhere.
Author:  BlackLegion [ Fri Dec 07, 2007 8:47 am ]
Post subject:  [Army List] White Knights Titan Legion v1.1
For your interest:
The old Codex Titanicus stats for the Plasma weapons where:

Plasma Blastgun: Range 50cm, Attack dice: 2, to hit: 3+, save mod: -4, slow-fire

Plasma Cannon: Range 75cm, Attack dice: 6, to hit: 4+, save mod: -3, may not fire other weapon

Plasma Destructor: Range 100cm, Attack dice: 4, to hit: 3+, save mod: -6, may not fire other weapon or move next turn
Author:  BlackLegion [ Fri Dec 07, 2007 10:21 am ]
Post subject:  [Army List] White Knights Titan Legion v1.1
How about adding this?

(EDIT: Link removed because it is now obsolete. New link see posting below)

The idea behind the Wolf, Mastiff and Jackal is that Wolfs always operate in pairs and Mastiffs and Jackals always operate alone.

According to an old WD the Warhound Scout Titans have cybernetic personality imprints from Wolfs or Mastiffs (and Warlords from Grizzly Bears)
So i thought it would fit if the Wolf configuration always operates as a pack of two and Mastiffs and Jackals always operate alone. Thus the points cost. :)

And i'm not sure if the Head weapon mount should be available or if available be swapped for a higher grade mount for all 4 Warlord configurations.
Author:  nealhunt [ Fri Dec 07, 2007 4:53 pm ]
Post subject:  [Army List] White Knights Titan Legion v1.1
I found a little time to look this over a bit more.
===

It is pretty simple and straightforward, so that's good.

It is quite a bit more restrictive on weapon selection than 2.0.  I think it could stand to loosen up a bit.  I'm not sure if it would work, but maybe something like trading 2x2pt mounts for 1/3.

I would also like to see it have more options/flexibility in the way of secondary weapons - CMLs, heads, etc..

Weapon and other ability balance is, of course, an issue.  As there is a whole thread dedicated to that idea I won't go into a great amount of detail.  I'll just hit a few high points on other balance issues.

I'm not sure that I would ever pass on taking the Veteran Princeps.  Leader alone is probably worth 25 points for most armies and probably a bit more on a titan.  The Enhancements vary in value but it's pretty easy to see they are worth at least 25 points.  50 points for a Princeps is a bargain.

The Devotional Bell is a non-choice.  It gains +5cm move and Inspiring for 50 points and 2 weapons.  For 50 points you can take a princeps w/ move upgrade and 2 assault weapons that will more than make up for not having Inspiring.

With only a 1/36 chance of failing a terrain check, I don't think I'd buy Rubble Claws even at 25 points.

The missiles seem pretty underpowered.

Other little stuff:

The "replace carapace mount" stuff should probably specify that it's a size 2 mount.

The Ordinatus potentially using arm weapons seems odd to me.

The Scout/WE interaction needs to be defined.  For example, each has its own coherency exception, so what applies?
Author:  Ilushia [ Fri Dec 07, 2007 5:28 pm ]
Post subject:  [Army List] White Knights Titan Legion v1.1

(nealhunt @ Dec. 07 2007,10:53)
QUOTE
I'm not sure that I would ever pass on taking the Veteran Princeps.  Leader alone is probably worth 25 points for most armies and probably a bit more on a titan.  The Enhancements vary in value but it's pretty easy to see they are worth at least 25 points.  50 points for a Princeps is a bargain.

This comment I find a little odd. In my experience Leader has never been a very determining factor for my Titans. The only time it even comes  up basically is if you have 2 or 3 blast markers at the end of the turn and rally, as it lets you go to 0 instead of 1. With only 1 blast marker you'll always rally to 0, and with 4+ you'll have 1 or more left over anyway. My experience has generally been that the opponent points enough stuff at a titan that either it winds up with 4-6 blast markers, or it breaks, depending on luck and some other things. Or else they don't bother to point much of anything at it and it takes only 1 maybe 2 blast markers. I really wouldn't call Leader worth 25 points here. 10-15 maybe, but not 25.
Author:  BlackLegion [ Sat Dec 08, 2007 7:55 am ]
Post subject:  [Army List] White Knights Titan Legion v1.1
I added fluff text to explain their intended battlefield roles.
I also changed the details how the head weapon mount could be used on the Nightgaunt, Eclipse and the Nemesis.

http://www.filespider.info?file=e58be54 ... c3f9a8fabb
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Sun Dec 09, 2007 5:13 am ]
Post subject:  [Army List] White Knights Titan Legion v1.1

(Chroma @ Dec. 07 2007,00:18)
QUOTE

(The_Real_Chris @ Dec. 06 2007,17:43)
QUOTE
4 Reavers, 8 Plasma Cannon, 4 las Burner, 3 Vet, 1 Legate), 4x+2 Void Shields, 3 CML
2 Recon

Othe than the Void shield enhancement, can't any list do something like that?

The Plasma Cannon can easily be dropped to 4x shots, I just wanted to replicate the NetEPIC versions this time around.

Well I wouldn't necessarily do it due to the low activation count, but other armies can't do it at all as they lack the firepower of your Plasma Cannon.

Also the extra void shields really count as those titans will survive longer.

Otherwise the current one would field something a bit different if it wanted 4 Reavers, prob the titans (2600), vet and CML (100), 2 Hydra (300). It would lack the firepower and survivability of doing it your way.


(Chroma @ Dec. 07 2007,00:16)
QUOTE
Are Warhound packs in a Titan Legion list underpriced at 500?

Would people take a Warhound Pack (Two Warhounds) if it cost 550 points?  What about 600?

I do think that a Titan Legion would, occasionally, just field Warhounds as the Titans in a force, so what can be done to allow that instead of arbitrarily restricting it?

It is a problem inherent in Epic A, the more Warengines you can have at about 3000 points the better. At 5000 it matters less as there are more counter measures but if you max out of something like warhounds at 3000 you overwhelm first the enemies ability to deal with you and then the enemy army.

Single warhounds for 250 are fine - its just having 4 at 3000 points is too good. Hence the rise to 275.

With the titan list that is so short of activations stuff that gives point breaks to getting support formations is great, even better when those are Warhounds.

And apparently the all warhound force is restricted in the fluff.

But you can still have it in any list - just get 5 Warhound packs, an upgrade and some air support. T'da, all warhound list that lacks the activations to be overpowering.
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Sun Dec 09, 2007 5:22 am ]
Post subject:  [Army List] White Knights Titan Legion v1.1

(nealhunt @ Dec. 07 2007,21:53)
QUOTE
It is quite a bit more restrictive on weapon selection than 2.0.  I think it could stand to loosen up a bit.  I'm not sure if it would work, but maybe something like trading 2x2pt mounts for 1/3.

I would also like to see it have more options/flexibility in the way of secondary weapons - CMLs, heads, etc.

I think in that regard its fine.

I thought looking at it that it was a more assault orientated list. You can take 'assault' titans for a 50 points break. That's powerful enough (imagine for a moment a world without excellent vets and upgrades) and support weapons don't necessarily fit that.

And I must say I'm completely against having warhound weapons on battle Titans. the models are the same for both chassis and it wouldn't be wysiwyg, especially if you had one model scout and one tactical.
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