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Blarg's Divisio Militaris Army List

 Post subject: Blarg's Divisio Militaris Army List
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 11:19 am 
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Ooh! Looks veeeeeery interesting. I have to do some sample lists, number crushing and some playtesting (maybe even against myself).

But that warenginesnapper seems... Strange. Actually so strange that I leave its playtesting to someone else.

I think that it is good to have option to many supportformations. Too bad I dont have any guard thingies to use, so I shall be testing this list with my Nurgle Titans and my renegades (my loyalist titans are only, well, titans nothing else).

EDIT: Oh yeah, where do I get stats for those other units (ordinatis for example)? Could you put every units data to that file, so I wont need to carry with me anything else than Big Book and that file.





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 Post subject: Blarg's Divisio Militaris Army List
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 8:07 pm 
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Hi Blarg

I like the idea of including the old titan types e.g. Deathbringer, Night Gaunt etc.

However I find the Titan weapon selection confusing- it feels overly complex. Whilst I accept the Plasma Destructor must be more powerful and hence take up more slots than Plasma Blastgun, I was surprised to see it 2 whole groups ahead of the likes of Volcano Cannon and Quake Cannon.

If I have read this right you have 8 different titan weapon groups- that feels way too many. I would like to see 4-5 at the most. Light, standard, heavy & extra-heavy. Maybe extra-light if you need to separate out carapace weapons and head weapons etc.

What is Vulcan Giga Bolter? That is new one on me. What is difference between this & Vulcan Mega Bolter? I don't mean difference in stats which I can see in PDF. I mean difference in model?

I also think some of the support choices need toning down in number. Any army list that can't fit on one page is too long and complicated. I also don't want AMTL to be percieved as cheesy list. Which I feel would be if you can choose too many non-titan options.

I don't want to exclude infantry, tanks, artillery from the AMTL list,  just reduce their number. I would be OK if these were included in 33% allies section. If you can take LR or basilisks but then you would have less air support, this would tone down the IG elements without removing them.

What are Divisio Investigatus Titans? How are they different from standard battle titans? Would they be better in a variant list rather than main AMTL list? Taking them out would help simplify the list.

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James

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 Post subject: Blarg's Divisio Militaris Army List
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 8:14 pm 
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And I like Chroma's suggestion of visually distinguish between Battle Titans and Warengines/Warhounds/Knights. Simple and easy to understand.

Also agree with Dave's suggestion of removing the 0-1 restriction on Warhound packs. Would be too limiting in larger games.

Overall I think this is an interesting start and more characterful than current V2 of AMTL list. Just needs small amount of simpilifcation by reducing the number of weapon groups and also number of IG elements in list.

Cheers

James

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 Post subject: Blarg's Divisio Militaris Army List
PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 10:40 am 
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This looks like a good start to me.  Limiting certain options would make the list, I think, a bit more thematic.  Limiting the types of tanks and SHTs would imply that the TL is from a particular forge world.  

 I love the Rough Riders as support for the Knights.  It definitely recalls a little piece of background from AT1/SM1 (WD 126, to be exact): Men at Arms (common professional soldiers) often accompanied their Knight masters on crusade.  They usually started out mounted on horses, but the AdMech would usually have to upgrade them to bikes as the horses got killed-off.  

 Units I would consider cutting:
- Artillery Battery: These can't keep up with the Titans.
- Hellhounds: Who needs hellhounds when you have warhounds?
- Support  Missile Batteries: Titan's can mount support missiles already.  
- Castellan/Crusaders: They guard the old homestead while the younger knights are our crusading with the TL.  

Other changes I recommend:
- Limit Leman Russ to one or two thematically-appropriate options.  
- Change orbital support options to the new Ad Mech ships.
- Limit SHTs to one or two thematically-appropriate options.
- There are too many infantry types.  I'd limit it to the three basic types from SM2/TL and leave the others for the Tech-Guard army list.

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 Post subject: Blarg's Divisio Militaris Army List
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 8:20 pm 
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Blarg:  After reviewing it, I think there are some very good things about the system and some not-so-good things.

Weapon grades:  Generally, quite good.  I like the idea of weapon categories as a middle road between a full point-based system and the tactical/support system in the current list.  It gives more variety and (theoretical) precision to balancing weapon loads without becoming overly fiddly.

I think you could probably do with breaking down secondary/light/med/heavy/superheavy as 5 categories on 2-point grades, instead of 8 broken down to 1-point grades.  I seriously doubt, with all the potential combinations in the list, you will be able to accurately gauge all the main weapons to fine 6/7/8/9/10 distinctions.  Even if the weapon points were perfectly comparable, a titan with +/- 1 points one way or the other is only going to be +/- 1-2% of the total cost of the titan.

Variant Titan configurations:  I like these as well.  Obviously, some fine-tuning will be in order, but the ability to trade out overall levels of firepower, shielding, and speed should be fun.

It is, however, a bit complex.  I would worry about an opponent who needed to check the enemy army list at a tourney.

I'd really like to see these kinds of pattern options in an ATIII game that is Epic-compatible rather than in an AMTL list for EA.  You could set up a more complex titan building list that took into account other special gear as well.  That would allow you to break out per-shield costs, move upgrade/downgrade costs and other special abilities/gear to get an even more customized approach.

Weapons:  I think the weapons need the most work.  They are obviously heavily influenced by SM2.  I'm sympathetic to that idea and it's fine up to a point, but there are some things we're just not going to be able to retrograde.  If you seriously want to take a shot at getting this version working and into widespread acceptance, you're going to have to adjust to the more recent definitions of the weapons.

Without doing a detailed number crunch, it looks like the detailed breakdown of weapons you have (grades 6-10) is based on your weapon effectiveness formula.  As noted above, I don't think such fine gradations are going to hold up.  The divisions can be simplified.

Finally, I think some of the individual weapons can be simplified.  A titan can already take multiple weapons of different types.  Multiple roles complicates matters significantly.  There's little practical difference in having Inferno guns picking between flamer and standard templates, for instance.  Same goes for assault weapons with X of one kind of attack plus Y of another.

Army List:  As with the titan weapon list, I think you have too much of the SM2, 40K-variety-in-epic-scale approach.  There's no reason any list should need 7 kinds of Leman Russ, 5 kinds of SHTs, 8 kinds of infantry (counting the TG bikes), plus the other assorted kinds of support vehicles to work and be flavorful.  Titans are supposed to be the highlight, not multiple fine distinctions of support troops.  It really distracts from the list.  Similarly, I think a basic TL list should have stripped down options for knights.

Lastly, and something which you will probably be startled at as potentially adding complexity, I think it might be feasible to do a point cost for secondary weapons with a stripped down version of your system.  You have CMLs as 50 points or as something that can be added in conjunction with lighter main weapons.  Couldn't you make most of the secondary weapon systems have the same option?  A few, like perhaps the Command head, could remain point-only upgrades, but the others might be workable as point/configuation options.

====

Again, because there is a fair amount of criticism above, I want to stress that overall I like your conceptual work.  I think a simpler version of your weapon-grade system would be perfect for an EA list or a more integrated configuration system would be perfect for an ATIII list, or both.

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 Post subject: Blarg's Divisio Militaris Army List
PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 1:34 pm 
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Its a very minor point I know but please can the super-heavy vehicles be referred to as Praetorians not Ordinatus, that term is exclusive for the 3 AM vehicles.
Many thanks


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 Post subject: Blarg's Divisio Militaris Army List
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 1:45 pm 
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(Fredster4050 @ Nov. 29 2007,12:34)
QUOTE
Its a very minor point I know but please can the super-heavy vehicles be referred to as Praetorians not Ordinatus, that term is exclusive for the 3 AM vehicles.
Many thanks

I always thought that there were more than 3 ordinati (ordinatuses?), and that they were all unique vehicles built to deal with a spercific goal.

Though BL did make a second sonic disruptor ordinatus for one of their novels.

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 Post subject: Blarg's Divisio Militaris Army List
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 1:47 pm 
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There's only 3 official classes of ordinatus. But any sufficiently large super-heavy vehicle (IE: 4DC+ in current Epic rules) which is not a Titan is refered to as a Praetorian under the old fluff. The Ordinatus refers to a specific chasis and a set of 3 different weapon-systems associated with said chasis.


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 Post subject: Blarg's Divisio Militaris Army List
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 1:55 pm 
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IIRC there was at least one more ordinatus referred to in the background, which was basically an even bigger Hellbore capable of carrying an entire regiment.

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 Post subject: Blarg's Divisio Militaris Army List
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 3:06 pm 
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(Ilushia @ Nov. 30 2007,12:47)
QUOTE
There's only 3 official classes of ordinatus. But any sufficiently large super-heavy vehicle (IE: 4DC+ in current Epic rules) which is not a Titan is refered to as a Praetorian under the old fluff. The Ordinatus refers to a specific chasis and a set of 3 different weapon-systems associated with said chasis.

I don't think there are "classes" or Ordinati; each is an individual custom-applied weapon system for a specific problem... and there's been a reference of Ordinatus Minorus or something as well...

In "current" fluff, "Praetorians" are Ogryn-sized combat servitors, not vehicles/war engines.  I believe the "Praetorian" name for war engines comes from NetEPIC; is it have an actual GW reference?

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 Post subject: Blarg's Divisio Militaris Army List
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 3:09 pm 
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CENTURIO ORDINATUS
These huge engines of destruction are not attached to any specific Titan Legion or Tech Guard army. Instead, they fall under the direct control of a division known as the Centurio Ordinatus. It is the Centurio Ordinatus who decide if these highly specialized machines are available, since many of them are ancient indeed and require a large amount of preparation and maintenance to ready them for war.

The Ordinatus themselves are amoungst the strangest machines to be constructed by the Adaptus Mechanicus. Almost all of them were originally designed and built for a particular battle or campaign, and some of them have never been powered up for conflict since. One example of  this is Ordinatus Priam. This huge tunneling machine was assembled during the siege of Priam, a city overrun by the traitor forces in the Horus Hersy. The immense creation was designed to tunnel through the planet's crust and then navigate through the white hot mantle underneath. This rendered it undetectable to Priam's defences and allowed four companies of elite Imperial Guard troops to storm the cities Generatum Vulcanis, breaking the siege. However, Ordinatus Priam was irrevocably damaged during the attack, as parts of its heat shielding gave way.

Other Orinatus have weapoons and capabilities which see more general use, and demand for them is high. Only in the most important battles or campaigns are the Ordinatus sent to war, and even then only for pre specified operations. Amoungst the enemies of the Immperium, the names of the Ordinatus are spoken with reverent fear, their devastating capabilities displayed on thousands of battlefields since the Emperor's Ascension to the Golden Throne.

The Cult Mechanicus revere the Ordinatus as avatars of the Machine God, creations of such cunning and power they could could never be improved or outdated. Thus thay have been carfully maintained, and when sent to war thay are inscribedd with sacred runes, anointed with the most precious oils and unguents, and blessed by the Lord of the Centurio Ordinatus. Their crews are the most highly trained of the Tech Guard, warriors who fight with the zealous fanaticism of those who serve a living god.

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 Post subject: Blarg's Divisio Militaris Army List
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 6:14 pm 
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Why not call the large machine implanted Ogryns "Cyborgs?"


Because they're called Praetorians in the very latest 'fluff'.

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 Post subject: Blarg's Divisio Militaris Army List
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 6:18 pm 
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In the BL novel "Iron Hands" an Ordinatus Armageddon is featured on a world somwhere arourd the Eye of Terror fighting against the Death Guard.

On Armageddon itself there where 4 Ordinati deployed. Most would be Ordinati Armageddon but Armageddon Golgotha would also make sence because of the nearby Squat World Golgotha where it was first build which also was under the treat of Ghazghkullz Waaagh!





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 Post subject: Blarg's Divisio Militaris Army List
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2007 12:01 am 
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(BlackLegion @ Nov. 30 2007,17:18)
QUOTE
Armageddon Golgotha would also make sence because of the nearby Squat World Golgotha where it was first build which also was under the treat of Ghazghkullz Waaagh!

The latest Apocalypse background states that Yarrick's Baneblade that he used on Golgotha was transported back to Armageddon for the Third War, so I agree that the Ordinatus Golgotha is entirely plausible.

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