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Blarg's Divisio Militaris Army List

 Post subject: Blarg's Divisio Militaris Army List
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:49 pm 
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(Blarg D Impaler @ Nov. 21 2007,14:09)
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First, I do away with the Tactical, Support, and Close Combat designations - I found them to be pretty arbitrary, unnecessary, and counter-productive to an extent.  I've always argued one of the central design philosophies that GW has exhibited with humans in their games has been flexibility, and if the AMTL are going to follow that philosophy they should be fairly open in what they can pick for titan weapons.


Agreed. I've never really liked this division of weapons.

I will admit that I am stuck in Titan Legions (2nd. ed. Epic) when it comes to infantry for the AMTL.  I refer to them as Tech Guard because that is how I have always referred to AMTL infantry, and because I never liked the Latin-esque names conjured up for them for AMTL 2.0.

Same here.

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 Post subject: Blarg's Divisio Militaris Army List
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 9:05 pm 
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First thing's first, please don't take offense.


Now, here we go.


- You have one list with literally everything in it here, which is a bad idea. Apart from being one of the reasons why the previous AMTL army lists failed, this creates list dilution (Which is against the spirit of E:A's focused army list ethos). Additionally there's a good reason that the community wants to see three seperate army lists here, it's not just 'mob rule', it's a desire for balance (Which will be truly impossible to achieve with such a broad-spectrum list as the one you've proposed here)

So, if this is supposed to be your AMTL list, remove the tanks, remove the artillery, remove the full selection of knights, remove the super heavy tanks, remove the tunnelers, remove the Deathstrikes (You have multiple versions), remove the wide selection of Ad-Mech infantry, field gun & servitor types, remove the Tech Guard bikers, remove the Leviathan & Capitol Imperialis etc...

If this is just a thought experiment then I apologise for being so harsh, but this list is unworkably bloated as far as real gameplay goes.

- The list has some strong imbalances in points costing of the Leman Russ variants (A Demolisher is worth a lot more than a Thunderer, yet you've costed them the same, etc).

- I like the weapon grading. A lot. Heads and shoulders above the system in the AMTL 2.0 list.


EDIT:



Reaver - 650
'Supreme Commander Upgrade' - 100
'Inspiring Upgrade' - 25

Reaver - 650
'Inspiring Upgrade' - 25

3x Vanquishers - 250
3x Vanquishers - 250
3x Basilisks - 250
3x Basilisks - 250
1x Shadowsword - 200
1x Shadowsword - 200

2x Thunderbolts

Total: 3000pts

This list looks more like a treadhead army backed up by a pair of Titans, rather than an AMTL army... it also looks mildly powerful...


- Remove the core Knight household option.



I'm in favour of large, featured army lists... but this is... excessive.





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 Post subject: Blarg's Divisio Militaris Army List
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 10:09 pm 
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Looking at the weapon variability, and considering what other army lists allow in that area, I would argue that you shouldn't allow what you call grades 1 & 2 weapons to be so freely swapped.

I mean, no one else gets to swap out similarly sized weapons so freely. Also, every extra weapons option compounds the difficulty (I am implying exponential growth) of balancing the list and keeping min/maxing at bay (which was a huge problem in the SM/TL days and also 2nd Ed 40k). Would it be so bad, if instead of allowing free exchange of such small weapon systems, you had several "base" titan chassis' that had a set mix of those types of weapons already?

What I mean is, ditch the grade 1 and 2 lists, but have those weapons already included on the basic varients, before the big weapons are add by the player. So for instance, you'd have the Superman Warlord, that automatically has a CC head and 2 x plasma cannons before upgrades (with certain restrictions to offset the basic weapons).

Otherwise, I don't see how you'll avoid either a rat's nest of rules exceptions/restrictions or rampant min/maxing.


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 Post subject: Blarg's Divisio Militaris Army List
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 10:26 pm 
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Very interesting list.
Personally i find the grading system ab bit complex. Having standardised chaissises, as semajnollissor suggested, would be better.

I i don't now if all those small secondary weapons really are needed. Are the 2-4 Titan-sized guns each Titan can carry not enough?

I have no problem with all the units in the list. Only the "Ordinatii". I think th elist don't need Capitol Imperialis and Leviathan.

And to restrict having few titans and LOTS of small smaller vehicles i would sugesst a restriction that you HAVE to buy at least 3 Battle Titans (a whole Battlegroup) and then add support formations.

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 Post subject: Blarg's Divisio Militaris Army List
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 10:39 pm 
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Oops, I'm sorry, my bad, I forgot to do something.  I was going to make two versions of this list: one for use by my group and an "export" version for posting here to account for differences regarding the Demolisher Cannon.  My group won't be using the MW Demolisher Cannon stats, and that is what is reflected in this list.  I'll make sure the export version gets put up next time.  Sorry!!!


That doesn't change the fact that LR Demolishers have lots of supplimental weapons, whilst Thunderers only have the Demolisher cannon, yet you've costed them the same.


1) While it is called the Adeptus Mechanicus Titan Legion, I think it would be a huge mistake to say that they would engage in battle using only titans...   I think it would be a HUGE mistake to take out all of the items that you advocate.

As far as I'm concerned the community has spoken on this one; They don't want one mega list, they want three smaller lists that are more focused and balanced.

The problem here is that your force that you have put together is not legal by my list.  One of the rules for my list is that 50% of the points must be spent on Battle Titans, like Reavers and Warlords.  If we include the upgrades you have spent 1450 of the required 1500 points by my calculations.

Easy enough to fix by dropping the Thunderbolts and giving the Reavers carapace multi-lasers.


Nope.  The idea of knights fighting alongside titans has been around for as long as I can remember playing Epic, which is around 18-20 years.

I've been playing Epic a long time too, I don't see what that's got to do with it.

Fact is, Knights just further complicate the list.

If you don't insist on having every other option in the 40k 'verse as well...

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 Post subject: Blarg's Divisio Militaris Army List
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 10:42 pm 
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(BlackLegion @ Nov. 21 2007,21:26)
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Very interesting list.
Personally i find the grading system ab bit complex.

If this list were more tightly focused on the Titans (By dropping 90% of the other unit types) then this concept would be a very elegant and I dare say simple AMTL solution.

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 Post subject: Blarg's Divisio Militaris Army List
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 10:56 pm 
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I'm just going to throw in my hat for a minimalist Titan list.  I'd like a list that I could use to outfit custom titans for my other imperial forces in addition to fielding an all Titan army.

I like the grade system, very clever. I think some clean up work can be done there with regards to some of the grade 1 and 2s however.

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 Post subject: Blarg's Divisio Militaris Army List
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 11:11 pm 
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I realize that, hence the reason why I asked if including titan upgrades on battle titans should be allowed to count for the 50% requirement?  What is your suggestion?


My suggestion is that... well, you know. :)

Obviously, if you want to force people to take a minimum of three battle titans, then upgrades shouldn't count... which is however yet another special list building criteria in a list already packed with them.

This army list is intended to be the "titan-centric" army list.

With the greatest of respect, this list does not delivery a Titan-centric army. It delivers the Imperium, in toto, with a stipulation that 50% of your army must be Titans or Knights.

The rest can be IG in Termites...


If having other WE, AV and INF in a titan army list bloats it then please point me towards your stripped down army list so I may offer constructive criticism.

I think you did that a way back when I messed around with modular weapons for Titans. :)

Frankly, take out all those extranious units (IE: Make this list about *Titans*, not Stormhammers, Termites and Rough Riders), and I think I could fall for this list.

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 Post subject: Blarg's Divisio Militaris Army List
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 1:32 am 
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While I am being nit-picky when I remind you that the knights do not count towards the 50% minimum


So the core Knight formation doesn't count towards your core points allowance?

How about the core Warhound formation?

This list just gets more complex...

Set aside your preference for less non-titan selection; what aspects about the list need to be made more user friendly?

Honestly I think the Titan set you've created is a great start... they're just incorporated into a very "fannish" army list.





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 Post subject: Blarg's Divisio Militaris Army List
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 2:13 am 
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Hmm interesting, will hold off on comments until I've had time to examine much more closely, but on first skim this looks intriguing -  thanks for putting it together!   :)

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 Post subject: Blarg's Divisio Militaris Army List
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 2:15 am 
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I think the weapons listings need serious review in the list as it stands. And some clarification. You have Carapace Multilasers listed in with the weapons -and- as an upgrade. Do I have to pay for them if I want to field them at all? Can I down my titans by 4 weapon points to field them for 'free' and only have to pay to have them on top of the basic weapons? Likewise with the Custodial Warlord Titan upgrade.

Several of the weapons seem to be the wrong cost. Take the Hydra Turret vs the Carapace Multilasers, it costs 9! and takes up a primary weapon mount! When I can field 2 carapace multilasers for less then half the weapon value and they suffer what, 15cm less range and more restrictive firing arcs so I'll rarely get more then one shot off on a give formation of aircraft? I just can't see when I'd ever want to field the Hydra cannon as is. It's got more firepower and longer range, for sure, less restrictive fire as well, but much much too expensive. Move it to Weapon Grade 6 and I might be willing to field it. But at 9 I'll never take it over a Carapace Multilaser.

Vulcan Mega-Bolters: Am I the only one who worries about the prospect of Warhounds running around with 9 FF attacks each? Not so great on bigger Titans, but you've got the Vulcan Giga-Bolter to make up for that. Reaver with 1 Gigabolter, 2 Megabolters, a Weapon Head and a pair of Lascannons perhaps (And yes, that's a legal loadout), for 18 AP3+/AT5+ shots and 2 AT 4+ shots at 30cm. Oh, and 19 Firefight attacks, too, let's not forget that! Or drop the Gigabolter for a 3rd Megabolter and go for a weapon head and 2 Carapace Multilasers to keep aircraft off you. March turn 1, advance/fire turn 2, assault turn 3 to get the enemy off the blitz. I don't think anyone will want to fight something with 18 firefight attacks at 3+!

Twin Laser Destroyer vs Vulcan Megabolter: Again, I can't see myself fielding the Twin Laser Destroyer much at all, to be honest. At least not  on Warhounds, and on larger titans I'm better off taking the Turbolaser Destructor in general. 4 shots at AT 5+ vs 2 shots at AT 3+, way better AP fire, more firefight shots. Sure I might have to double to fire it instead of advance dropping it to 6+ on turn 1, but with a 30cm move range I'll rarely have to do that more then once, especially with the ability to garrison a Warhound up front! The VMB is just straight up better then the Twin Laser Destroyer as things stand as near as I can tell when it comes to Warhounds anyway.

Hellion Missiles: MW 2+, TK(D3), 90 cm range, class 2 weapons??? Am I the only one who looks at these and thinks 'why would I -ever- want a deathstrike unless I already have 2 of these??' I can just imagine a Warlord with 2 of these, 2 Deathstrikes and a pair of Rocket Launchers or maybe Inferno Guns. Average of 11 points of TK damage in a single round of firing. Oh, sure, you can only do it once. But when one well-chosen target can net you your point value or more back, who cares? And once you're done unloading those missiles, you have 6 BP of firepower at 60cm, or 6 BP of macroweapon power at 30cm! You could do something similar with a Reaver, using just one Deathstrike, and still get to something like 7.5 DC on average plus whatever you do with your two secondary weapons.

Harpoon Missile: I -really- dislike this. Anything which takes a point of damage from it joins your side? Not only does it not make sense in many cases (Necron warengines for instance), but it makes it an extremely swingy weapon. Sometimes it'll do jack, sometimes it'll net you in excess of 1000 points of advantage over your enemy (Hit someone's 800 point Great Gargant with it after shooting out the shields, and if you manage to damage it you've just denied them an 800 point formation AND gained an 800 point formation of your own!) IMHO, this weapon -alone- is reason enough for me not to want to play against this list. The ramifications of being able to 'steal' opposing war engines are quite high, especially since I can potentially mount four of these on a Warlord or three on a Reaver! Pick your targets carefully and sustain fire and you've got a -very- good chance of swiping something expensive from the enemy, potentially claiming BTS (Does the thing in question count as destroyed for purposes of BTS?) and gaining a big point lead on my opponent (Or at least not giving one up) if they ever field anything big, expensive and fancy.

Vortex Missile: I'm against BP TK attacks on principles. The end result of hitting a titan with one is pretty grotesque, made more so by the fact this thing has such long range it can hit wherever it likes and you can field 2 on a Warlord plus 2 backup weapons (Or 1 on a Reaver plus 2 backups and some support weapons). Being able to potentially fry virtually any war-engine class unit on the table on turn 1 in a single activation is a bad thing, to me, and that's exactly what this allows for potentially.

Deathstrike Cannon: Do you round movement up or down when halving it? (I'd assume up, I think that's the general rule, but it would be good to have a note somewhere about it).

Not many comments on the list build itself, to be honest. It doesn't really feel very titan-centered (0-1 Warhound packs, but unlimited single warhounds seems weird to me). I'd recommend moving the Ordinatus to the support section, at least. Knights as a central formation I'm so-so on. I'd like to be able to field larger units of other knights as well, but that's just me. Why are there Rough Riders in with the knights? Doesn't seem to make much sense, and detracts from the actual Knights as a supporting assault formation, IMHO.

Just what I've found in a read-over of it. Sorry if it comes off a bit harsh. I like the concept, but the execution seems like it could use some work. The potential for weapon load-outs is pretty neat, but not sure how well it'll work out over all as it may make some weapons largely worthless and others really really good.


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 Post subject: Blarg's Divisio Militaris Army List
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 2:23 am 
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(Blarg D Impaler @ Nov. 22 2007,00:44)
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Do you have a suggestion how I can make this more clear? ?Should I asterisk the Warlord and Reaver with a note somewhere saying that only they count towards the 50% limit? ?Seriously, I'm interested in any suggestions you might have.

Perhaps something like this?

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 Post subject: Blarg's Divisio Militaris Army List
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 5:11 am 
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With regards to the grades 1 & 2, I think 2x Carapace Multilasers should be a grade 1. Why would they require any more mounting that 2x lascannons?  Ilushia hit on my other issue, the upgrade vs. the free carapace multilasers.

I like Chroma's suggestion, I would drop the 0-1 on the Warhound company though.  The knights I still think should be in their own list.

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 Post subject: Blarg's Divisio Militaris Army List
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 8:26 am 
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Hydra: The hydra also takes up a main gun point, and hits on the same AA value of 5+. The longer range is nice, to be sure, but considering that relatively few aircraft formations can put out resonable firepower at 45cm ranges (Infact, few aircraft have more then 1 weapon which reaches 45cm at all, if they have any!) I can't see the range being that useful unless you're using your titans as an AA umbrella (And it might be better to just use Hydras at that point, really). I might be able to see myself making a serious AA umbrella by fielding 2 of them -and- 2 Carapace Multilasers on a warlord, maybe, but otherwise they just don't seem that useful to me considering their cost vs reward for something as expensive as a titan.

Hellion Missiles: I'm missing why you claim 50% hit rate on the Hellions, right now they're MW 2+ TK(D3). That's an 83% hit rate right there. Same for the Deathstrikes. And getting something lined up directly infront of you is easy. Advance, pivot so you're facing straight at it and your central line runs through the middle of its base. It's practically effortless against most titan-class opponents, and even easier against formations where the formation may cross your center point all on its own without you doing anything.

Harpoon missile: I'm not entirely sure. Perhaps have a rule which says that the target gets to attempt to Rally in the end phase with a +1 (or +2) modifier and if it succeeds then it returns to owner's control? Seems kinda fiddly and agrivating anyway as the potential to have your great big war-engine taken over on turn 1 before it gets to do anything, then promptly activate and blow the heck out of your army sucks. Also doesn't make sense against Tyranid Biotitans or Necron super-heavies or Chaos greater daemons or... Well, the list goes on. My honest suggestion on what to do with it? Remove it from the list. Not that I have anything against this weapon in a fluff-wise sense, I think it's neat, just that I think it'll lead to a lot of really absurd moments in gameplay and makes it substantially more annoying, not to mention punishing the opponent for fielding super-heavy vehicles!

Vortex Missile: I'd step it down to TK(1) or maybe TK(D3) at absolute most. But I dislike BP TK weapons due to the effect they have on titans as the larger the titan is the harder they hit. On a warhound they average around 4-5 damage right now. On a Reaver they average 7. On a Warlord they average 9-10. On a Great Gargant they average 14. Essentially the larger and more powerful the target is, the harder it hits them and the more likely it is to be able to one-shot them potentially. Admittedly that's all on Sustained Fire, but when you can field a Reaver with, say, a vortex missile, a deathstrike missile and a vulcan megabolter, hide it in some terrain somewhere the enemy can't easily assault it without getting within 10cm of it (making its short secondary range less an issue) and it can pretty well scrap any titan-class opponent it feels like anywhere it wants to.

Few list oddities: What are the support missile launchers? I assume these are Deathstrike launchers? Or something else?

What effect does giving a titan a tech priest have?

And finally: The stats for the class 1 weapons are a little confusing. Do they mean that you get X shots and X setups, or just X setups with 1 shot each? For instance if I take the lascannon one, do I get 2 lascannons firing at 2x AT 5+(You have it 4+ which isn't accurate, BTW), or do I get 2 lascannons at AT 5+ each, spread across two mounts? Could use some clarification, IMHO.


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 Post subject: Blarg's Divisio Militaris Army List
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 8:34 am 
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Yes I can see the difference in style :) Very much the 2nd edition everything in an army style vs the 1st edition which gave more of a titan vs titan feel with the rest as ants scurrying between the legs. Originally it was just Titans, then titans got infantry to shoot after they had killed the other titans, then knights were thrown in. Epic 1st edition potted history :)

There isn't much point currently discussing weapon balance as this I take it is a concept paper, not one aiming to show a finished product, so any comments will reflect that. Plus there isn't any point repeating arguments about weapon balance we have had in the past (you just don't rate volcano cannon do you? :) ). I think everyone else should stick to this as well and steer clear of combos that in the future would receive work.

The 'current' titan system was a way to balance your limited activations, differing power level of weapons and peoples existing models. In essence if you had an SG Reaver you could build a more powerful one so your existing model collection didn't loose out and you had extra firepower to compensate for your activation disadvantage. This does result in some titans being better than others, unlike your system which attempts to make all Titans equal.

So as to your system

Advantages
You get to use all your OOP stuff.
You get to avoid the activation issue with Titan based armies (you can have lots if you want).

Disadvantages
You get to use all your OOP stuff.
New system (not in itself a disadvantage but it leads to) so longer testing time.
Disadvantages some existing titan builds, specifically the SG reaver.
Assumes weapons combos of the same points are equal and not affected by synergies with support units (or does it?)
Has a number of new rules associated with it (but then again we are all reasoning adults).
Changes existing weapons and therefore balance of titans in other lists (VC, TLD, MRL, VMB).
Lots of variables so take some time to perfect.

Undoubtedly the titan build system is daunting. Lots of numbers. Still I'm sure it might work given enough time. Do you then feel that the three original objectives for the titan system are met by the list (the ones above)? Namely the activation issue, different power of weapons (well it should do, you have replaced the two tier tactical/support(assault) system with a multi tiered system after all!) and peoples existing models?

Then some questions

Can I mount 'Warlord' weapons on non warlord titans?

Can I have Warhounds that mount an extra heavy weapon and a light weapon? Say a plasma destructor or Giga bolter and a plasma destroyer?

Are the weapons and upgrades the same thing? Or is that cost in addition to their hardpoint requirements?

Can I elect to 'not fire' an empty single shot weapon for the plasma widget? Like the rules for suppressing units.

As to your challenge I would go for

Titan list
Warlord
Reaver
6 Warhounds
Warhound them to death.


Non titan list
Warlord
Reaver
Hellbore/Leviathan
9 support
Out-activate then kill with titans.


Oh, from reading the above (curse the delay between reading, teaching daughter, writing and posting) would you like comments on the weapons?

If so here to start is a general comment. Your anti assault bias is still there. You just don't rate it. I see Titans as assault engines that fire lots until they get to their game winning assaults. This weapon selection system allows me to max that out.

Take Warhounds, if I can't do the extra heavy/minor weapon combo I would stick with nowt but VMB and have a massive FF orientated army. Double, engage, engage with lots of multiple support. Where else can I get 2 void shields, 3dc 5+ RA, walker, move 30cm and 9 FF4+ attacks for 250 points? I can take 8 hits in a firefight and probably not die, then I get to do my FF attacks back plus those of my buddies.

If this was denied to me I would load up with 2 MRL and have (in the list above) 6 formations with a 60cm +30cm move 6BP attack. Mwhahahaha. Of course they also have indirect (which I assume is an error).

Though corvus assault pods could be a laugh for a super quick platform for delivering troops into engagements.

Weapons
1/2 category. Do these really make up for the difference? Forget the extra assault heads for now (my these are fun, especially the FF ones) do the weapon ones equal the diference between two similar weapon types? Is say a Vulcan mega bolter and three lots of heavy bolters equal to a giga bolter?
And are they balanced to each other? Why take a twin assault cannon when you can get 2 plasma instead for the same firepower every turn and teh option to alpha strike?

Fire con centre isn't worth it, why not just get a second weapon system?

You can build FF monsters  - a reaver say with 3 vulcans, FF head and 2 carapace multilasers for 18 4+ attacks, still not as good as the warhounds mind, but you get the flak.

Balance between categories seems a little strange - take the TLD and triple laser destroyer. If I ever wanted to take either of these why take the tripe? Its chances of hitting are almost identical.

Weapons aren't balanced in each category either. Is there really a choice between your TLD and a VC?

Overall there s a lot of AP, a fair bit of MW but not much AT - deliberate?

A minor niggle you are still like me struggling with the problem of the same model on the scout and battle titans, though obviously your names are a bit more exciting!

To compare the two systems my current thoughts would be (and please correct me) that the version 2 one tries to balance Titan weapons across the army with a two step solution, whilst at the same time delivering a slight increase in power and accommodating as many existing builds as possible, as well as not altering published weapon stats,
whilst your system attempts to balance them on each Titan, brings in additional steps of power to do this, re-writes weapons so they have a sensible place in the grading, encourages changes for existing titan models and relies on the list to determine overall power level army wise?

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