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Question: How important is range?

Ilushia

Post subject: Question: How important is range?

Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 7:58 am

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The thing about range is that ranges over a certain point (About 60cm in my experience) aren't very useful. A board is only 120cm from edge to edge typically, with 15cm deployment zones that means most forward deploying non-garrison forces start out about 90cm across if they're straight across, a little more if they're not straight across. With a 15cm movement speed that means there's a fairly good chance to reach at least a few bases with a double on turn 1, assuming they haven't moved, and fairly easy if they have moved. At worst you have to march turn 1 then turn 2+ you can shoot. But at 75cm or 90cm it's usually overkill, since I'll usually want to double turn 1 anyway to get my troops forward enough to start claiming objectives the advantage of those 30cm extra isn't that great.

Similar things happen with short ranges especially on faster moving units. Take the VMB in your list. On a Reaver it has a 70cm functional range. You can March turn 1 to get 60cm up the board, leaving only about 30cm to opposing deployment zone or so. Next turn you can Advance, Double or maybe Engage depending on where the opponent is compared to you. It means you give up a turn of fire, but for all those extra firefight attacks or volume of fire attacks it's not such a big issue to be honest.

Weapon ranges under 30cm tend to be very restrictive on slower moving models. And over 60 tend to be a little bit of overkill. Mostly it's more a matter that putting 3 on the same titan is possible in your list and so long as all the weapons have the same (or nearly the same) range it's fine.

The missiles having a 180cm range might as well be 'infinite' when they have Indirect Fire. An epic board 120cm by 180cm (Standard board size) only has a 210cm diagonal or so. So assuming firing from one corner to the opposite corner (a rare occurance) the longest range a weapon ever needs in a standard game is 210cm. If my missile launcher is relatively central on the board it should be able to reach anywhere it can draw LoS to pretty effortlessly. Hence on a standard board the difference between 180cm and 'infinite' is non-existent as far as I can tell.

My experience has been that generally asside from a few specialist units like Shadowswords most units will wind up within 40-50cm of one another after the first 1-2 turns anyway, so short ranges are less of an issue once the game gets into full swing. And the heavier firepower of the VMB in your list more then makes up for the 1/3 range compared to the TLD versions, to be honest.

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The_Real_Chris

Post subject: Question: How important is range?

Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 9:41 am

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Range is a function of movement and firepower a function of modifiers (I think thats the right words).

Take plasma weapons. You can generate identical amounts of fire on advance over x range with a weapon that has 3 MW3+ attacks and one that has 6xMW5+.

But the former when doubling hits 50% more than the latter, whilst the latter on sustain hits better than the former. Are they then balanced?

Complicating this is the GT scenario that encourages movement towards objectives with an aim to capturing them. Weapons with good hit ratios are therefore better in that reguard than ones better on sustain.

Then we bring range in. A weapon with a range of 90cm+ can hit an enemy deployment zone with no modifier, hopefully breaking formations there and denying the enemy the chance to move and fire them.

A 60cm range weapon on a Reaver has weapon bands of 60/80/100, the latter being a deployment zone strike. I would factor that into your TLD. 90cm 2xAT2+ vs 60cm 4xAT3+. The former needs to advance, the latter double, but the former hits 1 2/3 times (range 110) the latter 2 times (range 100). Not only am I 20cm closer to my objectives but I did more hits. Of course if the target is on the baseline I would need the 90cm weapon, but most of the time that isn't the case as they have to move forward as well. Plus when it comes to sustaining the latter throws out a lot more firepower.

The drop from 45 to 30 is also not much of a big deal with the added FF ability. I am now trying to get into a position <35cm from the enemy. Something I try to do _anyway_ as a Titan is an excellent unit to launch FF attacks with (all those void shields and high to hit numbers and lots of attacks). I am going to be doubling and with a reaver thats a 70cm range. With the number of FF attacks being so high any hits are really a bonus, especially as I have so many shots. hell i could move in shooting up an LV or inf formation to a position where I could assault an AV formation next turn for optimal use.

Now of course this all assumes that the enemy is doing the right things for the titans, but his options are limited. He can't not go towards the titans. If you are like me you will have put his objectives on the half way line. He either fights them on the move or lets them consolidate and sustain off the objectives. What he has to be doing is trying to move forward and engaging a max of one titan whilst using terrain to ignore the rest and on the last turn ruining the titan objective holds whilst getting enough himself plus the stuff he's destroyed for a win. the Titan player conversely is trying to make him fight his army, so he will die. Speed is very important here and weapons that allow the titans to fight well whilst closing the range are great. Long range weapons might have more firepower but hand the initiative to the enemy.

With a slower titan like a Warlord the whole doubling everywhere is a bit harder. A VMB has a max 60cm range now which isn't long enough. Instead I would march and gamble the increased effectiveness of assaults of the Warlord makes up for less shots. 60cm range weapons also aren't enough to hit the enemy deployment zone as you have an effective range of 90cm. The Warlord though is a good candidate for powerful 90cm+ weapons like the VC. While the Reavers charge you can defend your half and blitz and now weapon range is very important, assuming the Reavers can keep the enemy bottled up. Here you can advance to get the enemy under your guns and defend the whole board. Lower total hits aren't important as its doubtful large formations will make it over, instead you have to worry about teleporters, air assaults and deep strikers, all of which have high quality but low numbers, perfect for tk/mw support weapons. You can also if you don't have to shoot them be lending support to the forward units with such weapons.

Ultimately range is important but it is not static - it varies with chassis type and order, with commensurate effects on firepower. In an ideal game my titans are either doubling for territory or sustaining for kills and those are the weapons I'm after.

Oh and firing arc matters little to me, as I assume I am the better general

If two players are evenly matched firing arcs matter. If you are better they are near irrelevant and if you are worse they can bury you. I'd say only go for restricted stuff if you know what you are doing, otherwise try for as wide an arc as possible. That also means units like Warlord can vary a lot depending on who uses them.

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nealhunt

Post subject: Question: How important is range?

Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 4:00 pm

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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
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The thing about range is that ranges over a certain point (About 60cm in my experience) aren't very useful.

Range is a function of movement and firepower a function of modifiers (I think thats the right words).

What they said. Range is not linear. Considerations of its effectiveness distort at lower and higher ranges. At the higher end you run into board size and LoS issues. On the low end the movement of the underlying unit becomes increasingly important in determining "effective" range.

For a fast, independent unit like a Warhound, in many tactical situations the difference between 30cm and 45cm range is virtually non-existent. Even when it does make a difference, it's not huge. So, when mounted on a Warhound, your 30cm VMB is just flat out better than the 45cm book stats.

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Chroma

Post subject: Question: How important is range?

Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 9:17 pm

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(Blarg D Impaler @ Nov. 29 2007,20:07)

QUOTE

Thank all three of you for your responses. ?It is obvious that my style of play differs significantly from others.

Hey Blarg!

Do you have any Epic:A battle reports or such that would show your "style of play" or can you give a description to help us out?

Thanks!

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BlackLegion

Post subject: Question: How important is range?

Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 9:38 pm

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While this is a fun approach to the game Blarg, and sonot "wrong" per se, it is wrong for the purpose of armylist-designing, because the armylists are designed ONLY for the Grant Tournament Gaming Scenario.

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Dwarf Supreme

Post subject: Question: How important is range?

Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 9:40 pm

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(Chroma @ Nov. 29 2007,15:17)

QUOTE

(Blarg D Impaler @ Nov. 29 2007,20:07)

QUOTE

Thank all three of you for your responses. It is obvious that my style of play differs significantly from others.

Hey Blarg!

Do you have any Epic:A battle reports or such that would show your "style of play" or can you give a description to help us out?

Thanks!

I was wondering that, too. In the games I've been playing lately with my Titans, my Reaver has functioned as long ranged fire support.

I've known beforehand that I would be playing Tyranids, which probably influenced my choice of units. I've been using one Reaver and 2 Warhound packs. Dave has been playing a Phase III Nid army which has a hard time harming the Reaver. These has allowed me to let it sit near my blitzkrieg objective and hit the bugs as they advance. In these games range is very important to me, because I haven't moved the Reaver that much.

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Dwarf Supreme

Post subject: Question: How important is range?

Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 9:42 pm

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(Blarg D Impaler @ Nov. 29 2007,15:35)

QUOTE

my group is less focused on assaults and more interested in ranged combat.

That's how a tend to play my Titans.

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nealhunt

Post subject: Question: How important is range?

Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 10:07 pm

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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
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Location: Nashville, TN, USA

I have to say that explains quite a bit...

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Chroma

Post subject: Question: How important is range?

Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:21 am

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(Blarg D Impaler @ Nov. 29 2007,21:41)

QUOTE

I'll make you a deal: if you ignore the fact that I am not a tournament player I will not complain that one of the three greatest failings of Epic: Armageddon is that it catered to tournament playing.

*SIGH*

Why does this misconception keep cropping up? T

he design of army lists is *NOT* "catered to tournament playing", it's focused for balanced play in "THE TOURNAMENT SCENARIO", which is the basic scenario for two strangers meeting to play a game of EPIC; it's not for prizes, or points, or anything like that, it's to allow fair and fun games between strangers! That is the balance we are attempting to achieve. Everything else is just gravy.

"Friends" can debate and change anything they want in their games, but that just doesn't work when meeting someone new at the local game club.

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nealhunt

Post subject: Question: How important is range?

Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:32 am

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Dude, I'm with you. I've gotten to the point that I like scenario stuff better than GT games. Play the way that you like. The fact that determining balance requires a consistent environment is not a judgment on your preferred play. It's just the way it is.

That said, if you want your list ideas to gain traction in the broader community, you have to work within that framework.

===

TLD: I agree that's probably closer to the original SM/TL style. I'm not sure about balance. It's competitors are the plasma weapons, so those are what it should be campared to.

Missiles: I think the Indirect Fire capability is probably fine. Firing them requires LoS or Sustain Fire, so slow titans have a substantial tactical decision to make.

VMB/VGB: The VMB, as a light weapon, can be mounted on a Warhound. The VGB cannot. That makes the considerations of balance substantially different for the two of them. A 30cm weapon on the slower Reaver and Warlord chassis will have less value than on a Warhound. The Giga, therefore, will always have less proportional value. I think you should feel free to make different kinds of adjustments as you scale up, so the Giga might have better range or better to-hit or something else rather than simply a higher rate of fire.

Range/FF: Allowing a weapon to have both modes of fire means it will be used multiple times in a turn - ranged fire and support for a follow on assault - as frequently as possible. A dedicated assault weapon may be used multiple times but it requires a committed assault titan and/or placement tactics that are very challenging to pull off. A combined range/FF weapon is a snap. If you're comparing it with a purely ranged weapon you need to make sure you add in a hefty portion of the average FF hits into consideration of its average damage per turn.

On top of that, the different chassis have different FF values. That means balancing any hybrid weapon is going to be very tricky.

Your best frame of reference/comparison on range/FF weapons is probably the Eldar titans.

Consider something like your VMB stats to the Eldar Powerfist. Personally, I think of Eldar titan weapons as worth 1.5-2 titan/gargant weapons each. The VMB has slightly better to-hit profile (a bit more specialized than the fist), 2/3 the number of shots, and identical FF boost. It gives up only CC ability - nice CC, but just CC. My estimate would put the VMB as a decent battle titan weapon and not better only because of the slower speed of the battle titans. It's probably a bit stronger than a scout weapon even before the Warhound's speed counteracts part of its weakness.

I don't know where you would value the Eldar titan weapons in your grade system, but I'd guess they are easily equal to a Grade 10 value in your list, probably even a bit more. If you call a VMB a bit under 2/3 of an Eldar titan weapon, then you're looking at 6 as the very low end estimate. If you call them 12s, then VMBs look a lot more like grade 8.

Honestly, I'm not sure how to fix it. I think you've come up with a set of stats that is simply going to have seriously different performance based on chassis. Correcting it for one will under- or overpower it on others.

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: Question: How important is range?

Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 10:24 am

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Correcting it for one will under- or overpower it on others.

Unless you price each weapon independently, and have them cost a different ammount for each titan class.

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The_Real_Chris

Post subject: Question: How important is range?

Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 7:00 pm

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(Blarg D Impaler @ Nov. 30 2007,02:07)

QUOTE

Turbo-laser Destructor
Range: 60cm
Firepower: 2x MW4+
Notes: -

Bugger I had a long and involved reply that has disappeared. Hmm, here's the bullet point version

Oh and tourney wise I've been to good and bad, the Epic ones are by far the best, apart from the scoring its like playing at a club.

That does less damage at at save range apart from 4+ and 4+RA than a Gatling blaster (where it does the same).

Further MW is a sod in the game as it 'breaks' it, and is disastrous for some armies, especially marines. The fire type/save/special rules are not as good as they could be and any system has to kind of fudge it, especially if you are going more a strict modelling approach.

Twin Laser Destroyer (Rename "Twin Laser Repeater" ?)
Range: 45cm
Firepower: 4x AP5+/AT3+

Should be fine - depending on how important it is to deep strike AV units, in which case this is a better option than the Plasma Blastgun. Bearing that in mind I do think it should change in whatever system to AT4+ as the warhound lacks a Gatling gun so no duplication

Triple Laser Destroyer (Rename "Triple Laser Repeater" ?)
Range: 45cm
Firepower: 6x AP5+/AT3+

Giving up two shots for 15cm range. Interesting choice. Very good for the Reaver as it can still hit the enemy deployment zone, but a bad choice for the Warlord. Of course originally the Titan TLD's were 45cm 4 shots, they went to 60cm because it was damn hard to hit much otherwise and you got out dueled by tanks.

Should the Indirect special ability be taken away from the one-shot missiles? If so, should this also affect the IG Deathstrike Missile Launcher?

Yes it should as we have the CLP as a way for Titans to get indirect. Seems a shame to break it for not much change. No impact on the IG though as this gets a different name to resolve any problems.

1) Restrict the VMB & VGB to one (of either) per titan due to ammo storage needs/concerns.

Bad as some people will be upset they can't use their reaver/warhounds wysiwig any more and it is changing the models to fit the stats - really here you can do it the other way round.

2) Tone down the ROF and extra FF attacks but allow it a wider firing arc.

Being duel purpose is a big boost. Best to go with a primary system and next to no or no secondary.

And really if you try to change the book warhound very few people will agree as it works damn well.

(nealhunt @ Nov. 30 2007,09:32)

QUOTE

Honestly, I'm not sure how to fix it. I think you've come up with a set of stats that is simply going to have seriously different performance based on chassis. Correcting it for one will under- or overpower it on others.

Well you can always go for three weapon pick systems, one for each Titan.

And if you take the liberty with names more and don't let different chassis use the same model for multiple weapon types you get round a current prob with your list (the VMB on the right is a VMB, the one on the left is a VGB etc).

Plus theres a bunch of questions on your main thread with stuff like can you mount grade >6 weapons on a warhound.

(Evil and Chaos @ Nov. 30 2007,15:24)

QUOTE

Correcting it for one will under- or overpower it on others.

Unless you price each weapon independently, and have them cost a different ammount for each titan class.

you know the current system with a couple of very minor tweaks works really really well don't you?

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: Question: How important is range?

Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 7:49 pm

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you know the current system with a couple of very minor tweaks works really really well don't you?

It 'works', but it's also very bland.

I think that Chroma's idea will be interesting to see.

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The_Real_Chris

Post subject: Question: How important is range?

Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 8:08 pm

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If its the one like neals it is the same as the current system 9as demonstrated by the 'big death' list).

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