I think people are pushing for approval and not focusing on balance a little here..... both should be a concern surely?

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No one is forgetting about balance. I just see the change to crusaders as a lesser issue. They would be nice in the list, but there are other ways to reduce activations in the list like changing it so only battle Titans open support slots. Getting the list approved was hard enough and if there is a way to tweak balance without making us provide a ton of new battle reports to maintain that I n the next version I think is prudent at this stage.

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-Vaaish

Here's an alternative thought on the Plasma weapons.How about adjusting both the PC and PD?
Plasma Blast Gun 45cm 2x MW2+
Plasma Cannon 60cm 3x MW2+
Plasma Destructor 75cm 4x MW2+

Scales up nicely while removing the nastiness of the PD and still giving each a place.

Edit - Sorry! misread the PC - need my glasses!

So why would the PD step on the PCs toes at 4xMW2+?

It wouldn't except it will never be used. People keep offering 3xMW2+ for the PD though which is the same as the PC.

To go back to the proposed stats, 4x was the original number of shots the PD had. In all my years I don't think I saw anyone take the PD for 75 points. It simply want worth paying 50 points more than a PC for an extra shot and 15cm range. I guess if you follow thru progression from the PBG to PC, each level should increase by 1/3. PBG 2x 45cm and PC 3x 60cm. Following that the PD should be 5x 75cm.

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-Vaaish

Ahh, I see. Is the PC costed correctly in the first place though? Perhaps 50/75 not 25/75?

Its definitely costed correctly compare it to any of the 25 point weapons. The issue has always been the PD.

EDIT: A 75 point weapon has to be really quite powerful to justify the expense. Its fairly rare that anything 75 points got used outside the quake cannon. That was only taken for the 180cm MW arty. Taking even one is almost the same as giving up an activation.

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-Vaaish

Ah ok, so it was boosted because it never saw use?

As another alternative:

On the point that Kyuss brought up just before - old Reavers couldn't use the PD due to being under powered to fire them. You mentioned that you were against forcing people to give up their old titan loads and have them remove parts of models. If Reavers couldn't take them this would mean no one had those loads so would this then be one less issue?

If the PD is brought down to say 50 for 4x MW2+on a Warlord only, then the Reaver is left with the PC only which could become more used and there would be no toe-stepping right...?

Just checked back to codex titanium, and I think it was allowed the PD equivalent on the carapace. Hard to decipher though the slot is a 3/1/A which I think translated into being able to take the PD (it was called the plasma cannon with the current plasma cannon being called a plasma gun).

However, we can't just slap carapace only on it since the warlord could take one in each slot.

Going back to the current PD, there's a lot of different types of weapons in the 50 point range that makes it a bit hard to just compare average number of hits to determine relative power compared to the other weapons.

I'd be inclined to do 5x shots which was my original intent for the PD boost though I'd seen it as a 50 point weapon. Plasma weapons are all just awkward because of the slow firing tag. It means they have to do the damage other weapons do over multiple turns in a single round of shooting which makes them "feel" more powerful than they actually are.

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-Vaaish

I still think the issue is not with the weapon itself, but with the option to specialise the titans to the extend allowed in the list.

6 MW 2+ every other round is tough but ok for a titan IMO, but the option to get 12 or 18 shots makes it crazy.

why not have individual points costs depending on how many of the same weapon you take? Like the ork list with "normal, big, 'uge" (just the other way round points wise) for every weapon.

Just putting my 2p in - in case you need another ! ;-)

I have to be honest, I'm not normally a fan but for once I actually believe the battle rep testing method is proving the issue - 2 tests spamming the option so far and the Titans fell flat on their face. Until they start sweeping the board against good opponents I can't see an issue.

If it's a "feel" issue, then I agree - the older battle Titans (and fluff) you see has them with mixed "all comers" armaments - they are a walking company, They can't afford to be caught out without the right weapon at the right time. The way the epic rules work (ie. Only able to fire on one unit a turn) makes it obvious to try and maximise one type of weapon if you have the option. Perhaps with the extreme "WMD" weapons the amount you can take on each titan needs restricting even further, but to be honest that already seems to be in place : There is already a surcharge. Adding the carapace only option limits the PD even further. Surely this is enough?

Otherwise, I don't see that a 1000pnt titan wiping a unit in one turn is any different to a landing craft with 2x Dev load out or a 10x LR exterminator Co. Both of which can do the same with ease if your opponent lets them. They all are powerful and you pay for it. It's fair and fluffy.

Otherwise it sounds like a terrain issue. If you want to use TLOS then you have to do what 40k Tournament players had to do when TLOS (and big models) were introduced to 40k - build higher terrain !

Unfortunately, Matt's game with me is not to be taken as an endorsement of the current list.
The Deathstrike attack on the Ordinatus that missed TOTALLY shaped the outcome of the game.
If that Deathstrike had hit, I would not have been able to keep at least 1 of the Reavers broken per turn as I did (I even managed to break both of them at one point).
Without that, I believe I would have been utterly routed by the 800pt Plasma Destructor Reavers.
Fortunately for Matt and I, the game was a lot more interesting because the Deathstrike missed.
I probably would have won at the end of turn 4 but it was by no means certain.
I am not a fan of 6 MW shots at 75cm at all.
I see nothing wrong with how it was - 4 MW shots at 75cm @ 75pts.

Just because a unit/option is used rarely (proposed reason for increasing the firepower to 6 shots) does not mean there is anything wrong with it that needs to be fixed.

Using TLoS is not the issue. That is what's in the rulebook and there are many around the world playing it that way. Using TLoS is even more important with large war engines as otherwise you have Warlord titans hiding behind some bushes. Matt was very clever in denying me access to usable/useful cover. I expect nothing less from him and I'd do the same in his place. The Warlord titan was hidden away all game behind a forest. The CLP negated that problem for the AMTL. Getting the Reavers in cross-fires, along with the Ordinatus was essential to keeping them broken. That wasn't going to happen with me hiding out of line of sight. The 2 Reavers were the potential game winners for Matt and that's why I hammered them as hard as I could.

It was a fun game but only because Matt had some stupidly bad luck at key moments.

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So the surcharge is only if you have all weapons the same? That doesn't seem right, I'd say it should be if you have more than 1/2 the same weapon (so 2 the same for reavers). It should also scale with the weapon size, ie a larger surcharge for battle titan weapons and maybe even larger for 75 point weapons than 25 point ones.

This surcharge I see as a way to severely penalise min-maxed Titans (which wouldn't really exist in "reality" - I know, I know) without outright banning them. But if it can't be done with points alone then the only way is to start reducing down the options. If that can be done by restricting weapons to slots it seems sensible to me. The fact that reavers can have different restrictions to warlords is not an issue - just change the way the list presents the options. Eg reavers must take "2x reaver arm weapons and 1x reaver carapace weapon" etc etc. You can price individual weapons (or pairs) independently allowing you to vary the surcharge eg "1 PC for 50 points, 2 for 125".

I remember in 3rd ed when my mate used to kit his warlord out with loads of the same weapon - it was gamey then and its gamey now, so we shouldn't let "old load outs" override successful balance just because you did it when you were 13.

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I'd like to try tackle this debate from a completely different angle:

@Vaaish
I agree Titans should be big and scary, and also with your statements that they need high level firepower/assault ability to have an impact on the battlefield sufficient to justify their points cost.

But rather than just report back to you what the Reaver with triple Plasma Destructor can do, and what its long-range damage output is etc etc, I'd like to instead ask what you want it to be. This is a genuine attempt to see if we've a similar vision for the unit or not.

This version with the weapons' surcharge is 825pts and shoots 75cm.
On a normal attack (not sustain/double), how many Battle Cannon's worth of damage would you want it to do to the common 4+ armoured targets?
Like, do you want it to have the impact of 15 Leman Russes firing from the same range, for example?

Uhm shooting at something with RA 4+, 18 MW 2+ equals 60 AT 4+ shots, so 60 Leman Russ. Just saying......

Shooting at an unarmored target still needs 30 tanks, since they only hit on a 4.

I think you may have doubled something extra in your sums, as I have it with long Range (75cm) and no sustain/ double:

60 Leman Russes
60 Battle cannons at 4+, 30 hits, kills 15 predators (4+ Armour)
60 Battle cannons at 4+, 30 hits, kills 7.5 Landraiders (4+ Reinforced Armour)

1 Reaver with 3 PD
18 Plasma Shots at 2+, 15 hits, kills 15 predators (Macro vs 4+ Armour)
18 Plasma Shots at 2+, 15 hits, kills 7.5 Landraiders (Macro vs 4+ Reinforced Armour)

But anyway that's just to clear up mspaetauf's maths, I wouldn't want this reply to prejudice Vaaish's answer about what he wants the damage output to be similar to.