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AMTL v3.09

ragnarok

Post subject: AMTL v3.09

Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 8:53 am

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One quick question, that game up in my games yesterday.

Why does the majoris xplode on a critical? It costs between 350pts and 550pts, and havng it explode to some lucky grot with a fork doesn't feel right.

the smaller ones can explode, but not the big mother.

what about borrowing from the Ork supa stompa critical?

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The_Real_Chris

Post subject: AMTL v3.09

Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 10:27 am

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(Evil and Chaos @ Apr. 13 2008,00:24)

QUOTE

We will be having some free weapons, however they'll mostly be the Warhound-class weapons, the gatling that caused you so much of a problem has gone up to being +25pts, meaning that Chris' powerful gatling list would now be 300pts over-budget.
*insert* - Surely only 225 for the 10 gatlings? - Chris *insert*

The Rocket Launcher will go up to being a +25pt weapon if it is proven that it's too powerful to be free.

Spoilsport

Still then its 575 for an assault reaver if the rocket launcher costs as well

Something to bear in mind is the 'core principle' behind the list.

The old one had as the basis Titans have several inherent advantages (big, tough, assaulty) and the big dissadvantage (cost leading to low activations). To mitigate this we went for increased firepower (the old 50/50 tactical/support system) which didn't reduce the dissadvantage much, hopefully just enough (and its a damn fine line, the biggest determinant of sucess is the enemy list and do they have anti-titan tools).

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: AMTL v3.09

Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 10:35 am

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Why does the majoris xplode on a critical?

Because it isn't really a purpose-designed warfighting vehicle, it's a highly unstable relic of ancient times, jury-rigged and annointed with oils (Oil burns!).

It is however over-shielded for a vehicle of its cost... it's just that once you get through the shields and start hitting the hull, the vehicle shouldn't last long.

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: AMTL v3.09

Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 10:46 am

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The old one had as the basis Titans have several inherent advantages (big, tough, assaulty) and the big dissadvantage (cost leading to low activations). To mitigate this we went for increased firepower (the old 50/50 tactical/support system) which didn't reduce the dissadvantage much, hopefully just enough (and its a damn fine line, the biggest determinant of sucess is the enemy list and do they have anti-titan tools).

Indeed, Titans are definitely the hardest list to balance (Well, I suspect balancing the Imperial Navy 21st bomber squadron army list might prove difficult too...)... I said when we started 3.x that I didn't expect the list to be balanced for a while, only that it had the potential to become balanced in time, whilst being more characterful (And less bloated) than 2.0.

If 2.0 went for increased firepower to balance the activations, then 3.x has gone for giving the player the option of reduced firepower and slightly reduced prices to increase the number of activations (Whilst still giving the player the option of plumping for increased firepower for an increased cost if he prefers).

Obviously, finding where to draw the line on reducing the firepower is our biggest challenge right now (Right now the line hovers somewhere between the Gatling Blaster and the Rocket Launcher...).

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The_Real_Chris

Post subject: AMTL v3.09

Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 11:21 am

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I'm sure you are aware of the mass WE game breaking effect in Epic (most obviously with the famous Warhound horde, note the old AC only fully believed me after playing it twice!

Of course with different restrictions and increased points I wonder if it would be as effective now?).

If you can go to the old Epic forum you should see a bunch of playtest reports from pre version one. I did a load of games just using battle titans at various points and abilities (primarily against Siege, Guard and marines) to try and determin where the mythical line is.

Incidentally by the end I still hadn't won a game but had got to the point where I could nearly always draw on VP's.

Since someone mentioned missiles

I tkae it the intent is to have all equal. Though of course with this system if one was better worse it could be costed seperately?

Say the launcher becomes a free pick and the warhead has a cost?

Personally I think the Deathstrike is equal to the Volcano cannon. It should be a 50 point weapon (giving slightly less than twice the firepower for one turn only and better targeting potential).

The others

The war missile to be the equal of the Deathstrike (50 points) should be
MW5+ TK(D6+1) Ignore Cover, Ignore all shields
So its more damage but with a lower chance of hitting (too low? More/less damage?)

Currently it isn't worth it with only a 10/36 of killing a warhound - the same as a Deathstrike. More damage, less accuracy surely is more warp missilie?

Then those barrages that were pointed out

Vortex
AP4+/AT5+ TK(1)
1 barrage template
Well you can bet you'll be sustaining when you fire this thing! Sadly the enemy will also have spread out

Hope for 3-4 targets so 1-3 dead depending on target type. An 8DC beast would take 4 points of damage on average, 6DC 3. Same level as Deathstrike? Have to sustain to get the best from it. But also multi-role and a great incentive for the enemy to spread out the best troops!)
Note shouldn't it be Ignore cover (as the cover is going to the warp)?
With Ignore cover I reckon 75 points is right relative to the others.

Barrage
AP4+/AT5+ Disrupt
3 barrage templates 2 Extra BM
Well I can see now the attraction of these! On a big formation (maybe even hit two formations) you could easily get 8+BM's before casualties reduce the size. Ordinatus with these would be one shot arty companies on drugs. Two could wipe a Leman Russ Company down to its commissar tank in one turn! Can't make a stab at the points without trying it.

That highlights something about the missiles and the ordinatus - as slow moving disposable WE they are ideal to use for the barrage missile especially (not really worth it for the Deathstrike, maybe for a powered up Warp missile and the perhaps the Vortex considering you have to sustain to get the best from it). Saying that 500 points of fragile WE isn't that cheap and only a formation like a tank company makes them worth while.

Going back to the barrage I guess one platform to use it on would be the Ordinatus majoris - 450 points for two turns firing. Otherwise how does an indirect Reaver or Warlord compare to a 825 Reaver with three barrage missiles?
With a CLP for 50/75 that would be at current costs 650 for the Reaver or 800 for the Warlord. I think the Disrupt barrage Reaver has an edge here, but an army with it would have to resign itself to being without one of its battle titans for the big push.

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: AMTL v3.09

Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 2:19 pm

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I'm sure you are aware of the mass WE game breaking effect in Epic (most obviously with the famous Warhound horde, note the old AC only fully believed me after playing it twice!

Of course with different restrictions and increased points I wonder if it would be as effective now?).

Yep, avoiding the Whirlwind of Warhounds has been prominent in the development of 3.x so far.

I tkae it the intent is to have all equal. Though of course with this system if one was better worse it could be costed seperately?

Say the launcher becomes a free pick and the warhead has a cost?

The costs for the support missiles will remain equal ; There's no need to introduce unnessesary complexity IMHO.

Personally I think the Deathstrike is equal to the Volcano cannon.

Thoughts gents?

The war missile to be the equal of the Deathstrike (50 points) should be
MW5+ TK(D6+1) Ignore Cover, Ignore all shields
So its more damage but with a lower chance of hitting (too low? More/less damage?)

Seems a little too powerful / random to me (A missile that ignores shields and has a decent chance of crippling / breaking a big titan on turn 1).

In addition, the AT era Warp Missile wasn't all that destructive, but it was quite accurate (It automatically hit titans, although it could scatter on the hit-location template a bit more than other weapons).

Currently it (The Warp Missile) isn't worth it with only a 10/36 of killing a warhound - the same as a Deathstrike. More damage, less accuracy surely is more warp missilie?

The Warp Missile has a 1 in 3 chance*** of killing a Warhound with one shot, and you are guaranteed to cause at least one or two pips of damage (Unlike a Deathstrike, which will just strip the shields 1 in 3 times you fire it; It takes a five or a six to kill a shielded Warhound with a Deathstrike missile, exactly the same dice roll as is required from a Warp Missile).

I see it as a tradeoff... the Warp Missile is an early-turn weapon, whilst the Deatstrike is a mid-turn weapon (Once the enemy's shields have been stripped).

An Ordinatus Majoris fitted with two Warp Missiles firing at a Warlord class Titan (If both hit) will do a quite reliable average of 4DC's worth of damage ; Two Deathstrikes will do 1DC of damage (7 hits, 6 of which are expended on the shields), unless you first strip the shields with something else...

(Vortex Missile) Note shouldn't it be Ignore cover (as the cover is going to the warp)?

Seems logical to me.

Barrage
AP4+/AT5+ Disrupt
3 barrage templates 2 Extra BM
... Can't make a stab at the points without trying it.

I haven't tried the Barrage missile yet... if it's too powerful we can look to decreasing its BP, rather than increasing its cost.

I'm going to start trying out Ordinatus vehicles with heavy missiles soon.

***I'm ignoring the to-hit stat as it is the same for both the Deathstrike and the Warp

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The_Real_Chris

Post subject: AMTL v3.09

Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 3:21 pm

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(Evil and Chaos @ Apr. 14 2008,14:19)

QUOTE

The costs for the support missiles will remain equal ; There's no need to introduce unnessesary complexity IMHO.

But aren't they effectively priced individually currently? They just happen to cost the same!

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: AMTL v3.09

Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 3:33 pm

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But aren't they effectively priced individually currently? They just happen to cost the same!

They are priced the same currently.

To change that would mean changing one cost (75pt support missile) into four warhead costs, plus a note that the support missile itself was free.

I'd like to avoid list bloat if at all possible.

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studderingdave

Post subject: AMTL v3.09

Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 12:36 am

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EnC, whats the issue number for that article on giants among giants, i would like to read it.

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: AMTL v3.09

Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 1:20 am

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(studderingdave @ Apr. 15 2008,00:36)

QUOTE

EnC, whats the issue number for that article on giants among giants, i would like to read it.

http://www.specialist-games.com/assets/ ... Giants.pdf

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studderingdave

Post subject: AMTL v3.09

Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 5:13 am

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thanks. from what moscovian has told me in our recent games, the imperator titan doesnt really have a place in epic games, which saddens me cuz i just picked up a model and would like to use it in a game eventually.

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zombocom

Post subject: AMTL v3.09

Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 9:31 am

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The imperator absolutely does have a place in epic games, just not at low points values. In a 5000 point battle it's perfect!

Just because it's in the list doesn't mean you need to squeeze it into a 3000 point list.

It's definately more fitting to the list and 40k universe than those dino-herding knights ever were...

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The_Real_Chris

Post subject: AMTL v3.09

Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 1:36 pm

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On a different issue how about bringing the Marauder destroyers back? They fitted in well with the army I thought.

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: AMTL v3.09

Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 1:53 pm

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(The_Real_Chris @ Apr. 15 2008,13:36)

QUOTE

On a different issue how about bringing the Marauder destroyers back? They fitted in well with the army I thought.

They were an unnessesary extra unit, as were the lightnings (& Strike lightnings?) IMHO, which added to the list bloat of v2.

I would rather see some accepted stats in an 'Imperial Navy rules patch' that could then be used with any Imperial army.

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