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AMTL 3.08
Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: AMTL 3.08
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 9:31 pm 
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I'm a little disappointed that some of the stuff I'd bought or planned has been dropped (even from the proposed Skitarii list),


I'd like to hear some of that again. :)

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Vermis
 Post subject: AMTL 3.08
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 10:58 pm 
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Uh... nothing major from my POV, if that's what you mean. :(  More to do with the Skitarii-suitable choices.  Thudds and Corvus pods for the most part, which you already thought of sticking back in there.  Anything else is just a matter of counts-as.
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Onyx
 Post subject: AMTL 3.08
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 12:26 am 
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I'm looking forward to whats developed for Knights.
Seeing as I've just recently got hold of 12 DRM walkers to use as proxies... ?:glare:

I'd like to be able to use Knights and Titans together. The progression seems natural to me.

Can I ask about some of the changes on weapon stats from V2 to V3.03?
Quake Cannons and Plasma Cannons for example. I only ask because I used to use these weapons a lot previously but now they are too expensive (Quake) and not enough range (Plasma) due to stat changes. If they more acurately represent the fluff now then thats fine. I freely admit that I don't know enough of the fluff and detail behind these kind of things.

Do these stats and weapon prices assume that the 2008 Handbook rules are being used? Not everyone uses them and that means that 3BP, I.C., MW is not as powerful and may not be worth 100pts (MW rules in particular).

Thanks E&C for taking the time to develop the AMTL list. I'm really looking forward to using it.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: AMTL 3.08
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 12:40 am 
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Quake Cannons... too expensive


A 3BP Macro-Weapon which Ignores Cover with this kind of range (90cm) is an incredibly potent weapon; Sustain Fire and you're killing mutiple units of Marines in cover on a 3+...

I have assumed that Neal Hunt's proposed rules changes list (Which the Handbook is based on) will go through, and have costed it accordingly.

On the current ruleset, it would still be worth no less than 75pts.


Plasma Cannons (Stat change)

The old plasma rules made poor sense to me as there was no relationship between each type of plasma weapon, and it is the biggest change I've made to previously existing stats.

The good thing about this (IMHO) is that plasma weapons are now distinctly related to each other, there is a clear familial progression between the plasma weapon types, and even with the (slightly) shorter ranges the alpha strike capability of a plasma-biased Titan will be impressive.

If playtesting shows plasma weapons to be too weak, we can look into upping their stats (Range) until they are appropriate for their price bracket, but I am convinced that from a balance perspective, and for approachability reasons, that Plasma weapons should have a clear relationship to each other.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: AMTL 3.08
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 12:42 am 
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(Vermis @ Mar. 10 2008,21:58)
QUOTE
Uh... nothing major from my POV, if that's what you mean. :(  More to do with the Skitarii-suitable choices.  Thudds and Corvus pods for the most part, which you already thought of sticking back in there.  Anything else is just a matter of counts-as.

I think we'll be seeing the return of these units in the Skitarii themed list... they're not appropriate to the titan-centric AMTL list.

Splitting the AMTL list into three sub-lists allows us to go into more detail, and finer balance, than having one big list with every option, IMHO.

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J0k3r
 Post subject: AMTL 3.08
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 1:08 am 
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I like the idea of having 3 separate lists that are well balanced rather than 1 mega list.  For considering how to share units across the lists, rather than each list stipulating which units you can use elsewhere how about saying Titan allies can only be drawn from the core unit choices of the Skitarii and Knight lists, together with imperial navy units.  

That would have the advantages of limiting book keeping and restricting the more exotic units to the appropriate lists.

You could also have notes stipulating in the knight and skitarii list that only a limited amount of upgrades can be bought fr each titan, say 50/100/150 for warhound, reaver and warlord respectivly to limit the amount of goodies that appear in non titan lists.




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: AMTL 3.08
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 1:12 am 
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For considering how to share units across the lists, rather than each list stipulating which units you can use elsewhere how about saying Titan allies can be drawn from the core unit choices of the Skitarii and Knight lists, together with imperial navy units.  


This is along the same lines as I was thinking.

It would allow the core of the AMTL list at least to be relatively narrow in scope.

Knights are of course still the sticking point, and I am considering seperating them in a different manner.

You could also have notes stipulating in the knight and skitarii list that only a limited amount of upgrades can be bought fr each titan, say 50/100/150 for warhound, reaver and warlord respectivly to limit the amount of goodies that appear in non titan lists.

I'd prefer not to insert such restrictions unless it was proven nessesary for balance reasons.

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J0k3r
 Post subject: AMTL 3.08
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 1:14 am 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Mar. 11 2008,00:12)
QUOTE
I'd prefer not to insert such restrictions unless it was proven nessesary for balance reasons.

Fair enough, though I wasnt thinking of this for balance, rather as flavour going on the assumption that some of the nastiest guns would be brought out rarely.  Oh and i meant weapons and upgrades not just upgrades :)

ps- like where the list is going by the way

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J0k3r
 Post subject: AMTL 3.08
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 1:22 am 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Mar. 11 2008,00:12)
QUOTE
Knights are of course still the sticking point, and I am considering seperating them in a different manner.

Sorry for double posting, but I was wondering why knights are a special case?  Is it because they are supposed to operate closer with the Titan Legions?

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: AMTL 3.08
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 1:42 am 
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Knights are a special case because they have essentially been written out of the 40k background, and I'm a fluff nut. :)

That's why we have this thread runnin at the moment: http://www.tacticalwargames.net/cgi-bin....t=11878

So we can look at ways of bringing back Knights in a way that meshes with the modern background.

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PlushWombat
 Post subject: AMTL 3.08
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 2:14 am 
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Greetings Evil and Chaos,

Just as a point of discussion, have you considered adding a fourth plasma weapon?

One that had the same to hit and number of shots as the Destructor but had a greater range..say 75 cm and has a cost similar to the quake cannon.

Not sure it would add anything to the available loadouts..since the one's you have presented work well IMHO...but I think it would give the plasma family a weapon in each range category.

Just a thought!

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Its not that Evil and Chaos is really all that evil..or chaotic...its more like he is just misunderstood!

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: AMTL 3.08
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 2:28 am 
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ne that had the same to hit and number of shots as the Destructor but had a greater range..say 75 cm and has a cost similar to the quake cannon.


I don't want to see a plasma weapon of that extreme range (If we take plasma weapon to mean multiple shots with MW2+ to hit with Slow Firing).

The plasma weapons as I have envisaged them are powerful, but that power is offset by their comparatively shorter ranges (As compared to the other heavy guns in their respective point catagories).

The advantage of the 'points cost' system is that there are now no 'no-brainer' choices, each weapon type has its own niche on the hierachy.

Its not that Evil and Chaos is really all that evil..or chaotic...its more like he is just misunderstood!

Lies and falsehoods; he's a very evil chap, I'm sure.

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PlushWombat
 Post subject: AMTL 3.08
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 2:49 am 
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Greetings once again Evil and Chaos,

As I have already mentioned, I like the list as presented.

Was just tossing something out for discussion...and while we are on that topic...thanks for the quick and considerate responses to my questions! :)

In regards to a few other items.

Knights:

If they are included... I would favor a seperate list. ?I've never really warmed to them. ?Though I can see them as a replacement for the sentinels in the list for recon duties. ?

That being said, I would however prefer something in the sentinel role that looked like a sm deadnaught and happened to be some sort of large battle servator.

Ordinatus Minorus:

Once again I like these very much! ?

Have you considered letting them group together in a formation ala IG super hvy tanks. ?Only problem might be if you brought in 3 all armed with quake cannons or vortex missiles..then that could get messy really quick! ?

Would be interested in hearing your thoughts on this.

Once again thanks for the hard work!

Regards

PlushWombat

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This just in: Evil and Chaos really is Evil and Chaotic....and to prove it... he just ripped out my spleen!

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Onyx
 Post subject: AMTL 3.08
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 7:33 am 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Mar. 11 2008,06:40)
QUOTE
Quake Cannons... too expensive


A 3BP Macro-Weapon which Ignores Cover with this kind of range (90cm) is an incredibly potent weapon; Sustain Fire and you're killing mutiple units of Marines in cover on a 3+...

I have assumed that Neal Hunt's proposed rules changes list (Which the Handbook is based on) will go through, and have costed it accordingly.

On the current ruleset, it would still be worth no less than 75pts.


Plasma Cannons (Stat change)


The old plasma rules made poor sense to me as there was no relationship between each type of plasma weapon, and it is the biggest change I've made to previously existing stats.

The good thing about this (IMHO) is that plasma weapons are now distinctly related to each other, there is a clear familial progression between the plasma weapon types, and even with the (slightly) shorter ranges the alpha strike capability of a plasma-biased Titan will be impressive.

If playtesting shows plasma weapons to be too weak, we can look into upping their stats (Range) until they are appropriate for their price bracket, but I am convinced that from a balance perspective, and for approachability reasons, that Plasma weapons should have a clear relationship to each other.
I agree that the Quake Cannon you have put forward is worth a LOT of points, and that is my query. Why have you changed the stats of the Quake Cannon? In its original form (90cm, 2BP, MW) it was still very potent and not worth 100pts (50 seems nearer to me).

It is generally preferable to have 4BP's in a barrage attack (extra template). Using the original stats, at say 50pts/Cannon, your getting 90cm range, 4BP, MW for 100pts. Ignore Cover is a hugely powerful ability. Is there a fluffy reason for its inclusion?

The Plasma Cannon issue is one of range. The difference between the Plasma Blastgun and the Plasma Cannon is really only cost. A 45cm slow firing weapon on a Warlord is generally only going to be used once in a three turn game...
I don't mind having fewer shots per turn (compared to the original Plasma Cannon), if the weapon can be used twice in a game and then its obviously worth more than a Blastgun. It seems that there won't be many Plasma Cannons being used as is.

My idea is this:
Plasma Cannon - 60cm, 3x MW2+, Slow Firing - 25pts
Plasma Destructor - 75cm, 4x MW2+, Slow Firing - 50pts

Make the Plasma Destructor range 75cm to continue the progression.
I do like the consistency of the to-hit numbers.

I play using the original rulebook and so do a lot of others (having read a lot of bat-reps recently). There is an understandable discrepancy when trying to write a list for 2 different systems (the MW change to barrage attacks has a huge effect on this). I can see that eventually we'll all have to change to the (be it only slightly) more complicated Handbook if all the army lists are going to be built with this in mind.
Not an easy situation either way.

This is in no way an attack on the 2008 Handbook as I can see why many of the rule adjustments have been proposed but I don't always see the need for them.

Thanks again mate for taking the time to read my ramblings.




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: AMTL 3.08
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 1:02 pm 
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(PlushWombat @ Mar. 11 2008,01:49)
QUOTE
Knights:

If they are included... I would favor a seperate list.  I've never really warmed to them.  Though I can see them as a replacement for the sentinels in the list for recon duties.

I favour a seperate list too, based on some of the ideas thrown around in the brainstorming thread (I quite like Neal Hunt's idea of Knightworlds being new, or alternately degenerate offshoots of the Adeptus Mechanicus... perhaps owing tithes and feudal alliegance to their master forgeworlds...).

Have you considered letting them group together in a formation ala IG super hvy tanks.  Only problem might be if you brought in 3 all armed with quake cannons or vortex missiles..then that could get messy really quick!  


Considered, but even two together in one formation would give a BP20 Disrupting barrage when both fitted with Barrage Missiles.

That's not nice. :D

For now, they walk alone.

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