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Who's driving this bus?
Chroma
 Post subject: Who's driving this bus?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 7:13 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Nov. 14 2007,16:07)
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I'd like to see both Chroma's and Blarg's proposed systems.

Well, I'm pro-Blarg as well... sounds like his system is a more detailed (and developed) version of my concept, so I'll wait to see what he's got!

I'd like to see *mixed* lists, with the first one being Titan focused, with some Skitari/Knights as support.  And then a Tech Guard one, and a Knights one... and then *different* Titan Legion with more focus on Knights in support, etc.

I don't think the "first" list has to be the be-all/end-all AMTL list... me, I *LOVE* variant armies!

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Who's driving this bus?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 7:19 pm 
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I am under the impression there already was a poll done to see who would be in favor of breaking out the lists.  I can't remember what the results were though...  Anyone have this link?  It may give you an insight without re-polling (which is terribly annoying).

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The_Real_Chris
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 7:22 pm 
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There are three approaches for the knights and the titans. None, some, all :) Currently we are closer to all. Frankly I would like to see one 'pattern' or knight with a strong role as a adjunct to titans (or frankly none at all but that would upset the knight fanatics).

Oh yes I am not asking for a poll, rather just peoples thoughts.

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Blarg D Impaler
 Post subject: Who's driving this bus?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 7:22 pm 
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(Hena @ Nov. 14 2007,12:32)
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TRC, I really don't want to see AMTL list lose all knighs. At the moment they seem like a nice addition and would keep em as such. But would have no problem to see a list that would be about knights. Same can be said about the Ordinatus (though I don't think that it should be a core choice) and Skitarii list.

For what it's worth, I would also be interested in seeing Blargs ideas and arguments why it is so :D.

I would have the AMTL list follow the general idea behind the Titan Legions boxed set background.  The AMTL should have moderate access to Knight Paladins (0-1x Knight Paladin Households/companies and 0-1x Knight Paladin detachments per battle titan?) and limited access to all of the other Knights (0-1x detachment per type, restricted to 33% maximum of points)

The Knights from the Knight Worlds are allies but with a higher availability than other allied Imperial services due to the unique relationship between the Forge Worlds and the Knight Worlds.  The Knight Paladin is the most common knight available, and when a Knight World (AMTL agriworld) sends Knights of on "crusade" to fight alongside the AMTL that is what you are going to see more.  While less likely there should be a chance the other knights could be present.

My take on the Knight World list should have all of the knights in plenty supply, with an off chance that a member of royalty (as silly as it is in relation to the rest of the WH40K background the Knight Worlds are typically represented as monarchies) would be present with a titan.  The rest of the list should be IG infantry heavy with few armored vehicles and next to no super heavy vehicles.  For a little flavor I would make available Rough Rider companies, and possibly peasant companies.

The Tech Guard army list should have very limited access to knights, 0-1x Knight Paladin detachments per battle titan present, to represent the odd knights that might be visiting the Forge World for whatever reason.  To represent the greater number of infantry you might expect the 50% of points on titans minimum would be changed to a maximum.  To represent easier access to technology the Tech Guard army list should be able to take more of the "common" Ordinatus (Leviathans, Capital Imperialas, tunnelers) and 0-1x of the more rare stuff per battle titan (Ordinatus, Psy-titans, experimental armored vehicles)

That's how, in very rough terms, I would organize the knights for the armies.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Who's driving this bus?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 7:25 pm 
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IIRC there was a vote in which the voters said they'd prefer to see three seperate lists, those being:

- AMTL (Titans only)
- Knightworld list
- Tech-Guard list (With funky Ad-mech constructs like Ordinatii & Hellbores)


I have a terrible memory though so I may be wrong.




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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Who's driving this bus?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 7:28 pm 
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Cool, that was the proposal way back pre version anything before we were told it was 'one list maybe' so everything was jammed in :)


And tech guard wise I wouldn't want a knight in sight :)

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Who's driving this bus?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 7:48 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Nov. 14 2007,18:25)
QUOTE
IIRC there was a vote in which the voters said they'd prefer to see three seperate lists, those being:

- AMTL (Titans only)
- Knightworld list
- Tech-Guard list (With funky Ad-mech constructs like Ordinatii & Hellbores)


I have a terrible memory though so I may be wrong.

I remember it the same way, so if you're wrong, that's two of us.

I also seem to recall that the major reason behind the "keep it all together" movement was a longshot hope of a real, official list.  I think we can safely say that's off the radar at this point.

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Who's driving this bus?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 7:49 pm 
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While I don't know if I agree with all of Blarg's ideas I'd be happy with him being the Champ.  He's obviously poured a lot of time and thought into it, he's active on the boards, can step back from a position in the face of opposition, and he's not tied down with other Champ duties.  If there is somebody of like-mindedness that can take the Chaos stuff that would be great.  If he were to do all of them then it might be a really good idea to co-author the lists with vice-champ so that you aren't so spread around.  Although for fairness sake it, how would everyone feel about an election poll?  I hate the idea that somebody down the road would feel like we gave it to the guy that can type the fastest. :) Just my two cents.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Who's driving this bus?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 7:59 pm 
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If there is somebody of like-mindedness that can take the Chaos stuff that would be great.


I'd say once you get a balanced titan list a Chaos titan list would almost write itself.  It would be mostly subbing in chaos-specific weapons and support formations.  There might be some differing force org, but probably not enough to affect balance in a meaningful way once the weapons and support formations are ironed out.

Or...

I suppose you could do a fairly radical titan chaos legion rewrite with an entirely different focus.  For example,  "no self-respecting chaos titan would bother with piddly little support formations" so you draft a list with more "utilitarian" configuration options so the titans can operate unsupported.

Hmm... now that I typed that, I rather like it...

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Who's driving this bus?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 8:03 pm 
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The Chaos Titans in the Black Legion list are certainly very different in armament to their loyalist counterparts (Something I've never been keen on).

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Blarg D Impaler
 Post subject: Who's driving this bus?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:35 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Nov. 14 2007,14:03)
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The Chaos Titans in the Black Legion list are certainly very different in armament to their loyalist counterparts (Something I've never been keen on).

I've always thought that Chaos titans should come in three different general varieties:

Traitor Titans - These are Imperial Titans that have *recently* gone over to the side of Chaos.  Aside from a different paint job, some symbology added, and maybe 1 Chaos specific titan weapon these titans should be essentially the same as Imperial Titans.

Chaos Titans - These are titans that have been under the warping influence of Chaos for long enough that significant changes have manifested.  A Titan Tail will have sprouted, the head will have become grotesque, and many (but not necessarily all) of the weapons will have changed or discarded in preference (or need) for Chaos specific weapons.

Daemon Titans - These are titans that have been completely consumed by the warping influences of Chaos due to extended exposure.  The crew is long dead (if they are lucky), the weapons are all Chaos in design, appendages have sprouted in different locations, and there is a good chance that a major portion of the titan has mutated as part of a "gift."  This is a kit-bashers titan and fertile ground for goofy rules ideas.

<<< --- >>>

I was not part of any of the titan development for the Black Legion army list, so I can't comment on anything of what they did.  My only disappointment was that the Banelord went from being a Khorne specific titan in previous editions of Epic to being Undivided.  Realistically, though, I can easily see the Banelord model being for any faction with a different paintjob and some minor bits.

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wargame_insomniac
 Post subject: Who's driving this bus?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 12:57 am 
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I also add vote for Blarg as substitute AMTL Champion. I have not agreed with everything that Blarg has ever posted but I have agreed with more than not.

It is important that we keep faith and be consistent with earlier versions of AMTL list. I know with the way that Blarg knows and quotes AT that he will do so.

I like the 3 lists that Blarg summarised in earlier post. Keeping the Knights, even in limited amounts, in main AMTL list works for me. I have long said I would prefer to drop tanks and keep knights if the number of options in AMTL list needed toning down.

The only reason that I could see dropping knights is to make list official. As that prospect fades then no reason to drop knights. One company of Paladins and limited number of specialist Knights.

I also love the idea of Knight Household with core of Knights reinforced by rough riders and peasant infantry.

I hope this is the start of re-invigoration of AMTL.

Cheers

James

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Who's driving this bus?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 1:06 am 
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Blarg: That sounds like an interesting basis for things that could be done with a Chaos Titan list.

Am interested to see your loyalist AMTL system.

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Kleomenes
 Post subject: Who's driving this bus?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 1:38 am 
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The book "Dark Adeptus" should be the main source of background to mine how a chaos titan legion could be done. Its not a perfect fit but it gives an idea of what chaos mechanicus get up to. There is quite a strong implication that the fellows in the book are acting ideologically in a similar manner to the guys in the EoT.

Notably, there is mass use of demon engines, from "demon servitors" to the titans in part being demon engines, inclusive of tank sized and superheavy sized demon powered weird stuff.

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Kagetora
 Post subject: Who's driving this bus?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 2:06 am 
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(Blarg D Impaler @ Nov. 14 2007,18:22)
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I would have the AMTL list follow the general idea behind the Titan Legions boxed set background. ?The AMTL should have moderate access to Knight Paladins (0-1x Knight Paladin Households/companies and 0-1x Knight Paladin detachments per battle titan?) and limited access to all of the other Knights (0-1x detachment per type, restricted to 33% maximum of points).

I think this is a truly excellent idea.  I, for one, love the idea of the current mixed list of Titans/Knights (Knights have an incredible coolness factor, as to the big bad boys), but I think the focus should be on the Titans with Knights as support.

I intensely dislike the current list that we have...the "all in one" list.  I have no desire to field overpowered Ordinatus, nor do I want to field cheap IG junk activations to make my Titans more powerful.

Titans and Knights!
Titans and Knights!
Titans and Knights!

:laugh:

I think the entire ATML list should consist of Warlords, Reavers, and Warhounds, with a minimum of 50% of your points spent on these units.

After that, you may spend up to 50% of your points on Knight Households (type doesn't matter much, but you should be forced to field one Paladin Household before you field anything else) and/or Aerospace support (TBolts, Marauders, Spacecraft).

Voila.  End of list.  Balance the weapons options and you are finished.

Blarg has my thumbs up if this is the general path he is going to persue.
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