To me, if you have one list with limited weapons and one list with "everything goes" and tons of variant weapon to cater to all the combinations GW has made for the last 20 years, it's the last one that sounds like an appendix list...

+1

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The prtesent War Gryphons list is certainly NOT an "everything goes" list.
The previous titan legion list before E&C took over was that list.

The War Gryphons list is already the "list with limited weapons" and that is the list we should be aiming to release in a supplement.

Harpoons Missiles, weapon heads etc are all not part of the official list and are only included for reference really (and for friendly games).

The previous comparison to the Tyranid lists is not really applicable. Acceptance of the War Gryphons list and acceptance of any of the myriad Tyranid lists is chalk and cheese.

The War Gryphons list is in use all over the world and it isn't destoying all-comers with ease. Imperators should remain unavailable for tournament play. Apart from that, there is the Victory Point issue in a drawn game which we are hopefully close to fixing.

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Disagreed; I think they can be balanced, indeed I don't think the current Emperor Titan stats are too far off-base.

Especially if a new special rule to curb the "play for draws" style is brought in (Imperators in particular were pretty great at that playstyle).

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My point is - these are 40k based books listing weapon rules for 40k models, either FW or scratchbuiltm for use in 40k games of Apocalypse.
They're not comprehensive lists with fluff.
I for one, and i dont think i'm alone here, take whats in these IA books as the be-all and end-all for all things Titanicus. Titans will always fit better and belong in Epic and as such if fluff/weapons are not listed in the IA books, then unless stated explicitly otherwise, the Titan fluff/rules that are written for Epic takes precedence.
Titans are shoe-horned into 40k via the 'non competition and non-official' Apoc rules. I dont konw why we're teating them as THE bible for all things Titanicus...

Tee

Actually, they are exactly that. Especially the Imperial Armour books.

No other publications have ever explored the 40k universe's background with the kind of minute detail given in the Imperial Armour books.

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Yes, they do - for Chaos SM, Loyal SM, IG, Renegade IG, some BFG stuff and other races.
Even the pieces about Titan Legions was not a complete discourse into all things Titanicus (is that the right term?).
I dont remember reading the TL pieces where it stated as such, they were descriptions about the titan types, typical weapons, legion history, tactics, o.o.b.'s, 'historical' recounts of actions etc.

I think i'm running in circles here, however i feel that the FW is not the be-all for all things Titanicus, and unless specifically stated otherwise or where there's direct contradiction, does not void all previous fluff.

I mean, there's is no Corvus Assault Pod (afaik in the FW books), yet Storm of Iron has them. Now i know the Corvus are still in the list and it's odd that these are, yet other weapons that aren't mentioned in the IA books have been cut...

Tee

Because I felt that the Corvus Assault Pod was unique enough that it should be kept, even in a cut-down variant list.


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Ultimately, this is a variant list for a Supplement.
It won't be replacing the War Gryphonnes list.
The Supplement will also include the War Gryphonnes list for those who want to play less balanced games with more variety.

Sure, the War Gryphonnes list can even stay in use in those tournaments that currently allow it, as it's fairly balanced to start with... but I can do better, and in a supplement, I want to put balance as the most important element, followed by variety, and then with the full expanded collector's weapons list also included in the Supplement in a further appendix.

So frankly, since everything's getting to come to the party, I don't really see the problem here.

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yes imperial armour books are more detailed than anything else GW or FW have ever compiled, but they're far from comprehensive or complete.
and they're not FOR epic.

the titan restrictions are based on 40k, and not particularly on game balance, but rather on selling the models they've made. if FW felt like making a corvus pod, you can bet your ass that they'll make one and make up something in IA to justify it. if titans where as big a part of 40k (and as big a seller) as they are in epic, they'd have more options. we shouldnt be basing our games on what forgeworld wants to sell to players of a different game.

if you publish the variant list as the main one (and if you have a variant version to be the full list, thats what you've done. even if you dont see it that way, when you publish a titan list in the titan supplement, thats the main titan list, even if you think of it as a variant, most people wont) then you'll be murkying the waters
plus, and i'll again point this out, these 40k restrictions on titan weapons have been voted down before. the general concensus was that people do not want it. what you're doing with destructors, is basically the stuff that people said they didnt want in the gryphons already. by putting it at the forefront (and make no mistake, thats what publishing it in the 'TITAN SUPPLEMENT!!!' will do) you're circumventing the previously demonstrated will of the community you're claiming to serve.

if balance is your primary concern in the suppliment, thats fine. include the full gryphon list, and the cut down destructor list. but include the gryphon list first, then include the destructor list with a "for improved balance, i recommend this variant" that way, anyone else who wants to prioritise balance over model options can do so if they feel the need. again, if anyone wants, they can make every titan available in the destructor list from the gryphon one, so the restrictions should be the variant/supplemental list, not the main one.

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It's more than likely that GW will never produce anything for Epic ever again.


Incorrect.

About 2/3rds of the weapons, and one of the Titans (The Warlord), that are in the 40k rules are yet to be made and put on sale.

They'll probably finish fleshing out the models to match the rules in about 5 years' time, judging by the current rate of releases.



I'm serving the community by producing the War Gryphonnes list, which, bar some minor special rule tweaking, is basically finished... That will be the main list in the NetEA Armies Book.

But a Supplement is a different matter. It will be the best book I personally feel I can produce, and frankly due to the huge ammount of hours I'm pouring into it, I think I deserve a little flexibility when it comes to what emphasis I place on each army list.


I will, and I'll include them with relative prominences as I see fit.

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+1.

I like Titan variety as much as anyone, but it's your supplement and you decide the criteria for those lists you present in it.

I'm looking forward to reading the (so far, good) background story, watching the pretty pictures that are sure to be included, and if I decide I still prefer the 3.19 list, then it's still there. I see no problem here.

I can see the fear of causing a split in the titan list, but other lists have had variants done without killing the primary lists and I really don't think that there is a problem with publishing a variant list in a supplement. FW does it all the time and I don't think you see the main Marine book dropping by the wayside because of it. My greater concern is if the variant is following what we know of Legio Destructor. I'm not familiar with anything on them to know if it's going the right direction.

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but when forgeworld publish a variant list:
A) its not in a Codex (and a published suppliment is as close as epic gets to that)
B) its not published before the core list (if the core list infact gets published)
C) in my experience, they're also obviously variants because they dont have all the core rules for the basic units included (atleast this was true of the lists i read back in the day) but rather, referred directly back to the core list
and as a result, D) people come into it knowing its a variant. noone is confused by thinking that the imperial armour krieg list is the basic imperial guard list. forgeworld doesnt publish its lists in the hopes of supplanting the basic imperial guard list

the fact that GW will probably never release another epic rulebook in no way makes the FW 40k rulebooks count as epic rulebooks.
maybe its different elsewhere, but here in australia forgeworld do not have anything approaching a reputation for balance. infact very rarely are any IA options allowed at tournaments specifically because they're largely unbalanced and crazy. forgeworld did not in any way create their rules with an intention of improving the balance of the game, they're motivated by sales. the fact that they havent released a warlord model yet doesnt mean they arent planning to, and it certainly doesnt mean that the absence of the imperator titan should be taken as a sign that the imperator doesnt exist in GW canon anymore, you seem ok with that, so why follow their other (arbitrary and unpopular) restrictions?

yes, its your book, and you can (and apparently will) do whatever you want with it, regardless of what everyone else wants
but please, remember that before you last quit, the community rather overwhemingly voted NO on your proposed apocalypsisation of titan weapons. if you think the restrictions are better, then play with them yourself, but if you publish a book that claims to be the titan suppliment, then you should include the titan list that the community accepts, even if you'd rather everyone just do things your way instead.

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I'd argue that the epic supplements follow far more closely to the FW imperial armor books than they do 40k codexes since they typically contain multiple armies and are centered around a particular battleground or conflict.


I think published is relative here. The AMTL list has been around a quite some time and most people are familiar with it. Inclusion in the army book as the "official" list shoud put to rest any argument what is the primary and what is the subsidiary list. It's not a first to market scenario and if you see it as a point of confusion perhaps simply add "derivitive of AMTL 3.19" or some such to note the list as a variant.


I don't think that E&C is doing this in hopes of supplanting the AMTL list either. At least I'd like to think he isn't that petty.

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-Vaaish

Emperor Class Titans have rules in 40k (Downloadable from the website). They are commonly mentioned in GW books too.


The War Gryphonnes list will be in the 2012 NetEA Armies Book.

That is the core "codex" of the NetEA project.


The War Gryphonnes list will be Approved in the 2012 Armies Book. Legio Destructor will not even be in the 2012 Armies Book.

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