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[Army List] White Knights Titan Legion

Evil and Chaos

Post subject: [Army List] White Knights Titan Legion

Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:25 am

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Sounds sensible; It's worth remembering that the AMTL 2.0 list ultimately failed.

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The_Real_Chris

Post subject: [Army List] White Knights Titan Legion

Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:49 am

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(Evil and Chaos @ Dec. 04 2007,16:56)

QUOTE

For the plasma weapons I think a better set would be:

Plasma Gun - 2x MW 2+ Slow Firing 45cm
Plasma Cannon- 3x MW 2+ Slow Firing 60cm
Plasma Cannon- 4x MW 2+ Slow Firing 75cm

The Plasma cannon at that stat tis superior to the Gatling Balster. More kills (unless to you sustaining) at armour, only 6+/6+RA are better targets for gatlings, and you are great on doubling and the subsequent assault. I'd be going with 4 of those plus upgrades to plasma destructors where I can get them. Charge.

The Destructor is just a bigger better version of the cannon. Tis an excuse to double your warlord whilst targeting the enemy deployment zone. If you could get it, why would you not take it over the cannon? There's no downside (unlike a VC over turbolasers say). You could join the 2nd ed fan club and give it a con at the very least.

The Warhound Turbolaser definitely shouldn't be 60cm range, it should be 45cm, otherwise it's better than the other light weapons.

For the Turbolasers, I think better stats would be:

Light Turbolaser - 45cm 4x AT3+ / AP5+
Heavy Turbolaser - 60cm 4x AT3+ / AP5+

Actually I doubt 2x at 60cm is that hot. Its still requiring a double to hit the enemy deployment zone.

If you go for 45cm 4x AT3+ / AP5+ you have a weapon that is superior to the plasma blastgun. Try it lots (like we did) if you don't beleive me. You are far better at going for the TLD. It kills more in one turn in every target category other than 4+ and 4+RA and the blastgun has slow fire (so over 3 turns loses out in every category). Even AP wise the TLD has the edge when sustaining and advance against anything with worse than 5+RA armour. And really infantry are rarely targets for my plasma blastguns!

TRC is right about the Warhounds however. (Just move them to Support Formations and it's all good again).

Or just say two support per battle titan.

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: [Army List] White Knights Titan Legion

Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 12:08 pm

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It is indeed better at killing enemy, for a single turn... as it's slow firing you're looking at a 2 shot / 1 shot split, or 3 shots / no shots.

Against lightly armoured / no armour targets, the Gatling Blaster wins out, especially when sustaining.

Tis an excuse to double your warlord whilst targeting the enemy deployment zone.

With the ammount of terrain we play with, it's very rare to have complete LOS to the other side of the board without requiring some manuever (Which will leave you out of range), as people tend to deploy most of their force behind terrain to avoid the situation you cite.

If you go for 45cm 4x AT3+ / AP5+ you have a weapon that is superior to the plasma blastgun. Try it lots (like we did) if you don't beleive me. You are far better at going for the TLD. It kills more in one turn in every target category other than 4+ and 4+RA and the blastgun has slow fire (so over 3 turns loses out in every category). Even AP wise the TLD has the edge when sustaining and advance against anything with worse than 5+RA armour. And really infantry are rarely targets for my plasma blastguns!

Presumably you think the same of the Vulcan Mega Bolter, since it's essentially a mirror image of the Turbolaser?

As regards being inferior against 4+ / 5+ RA / 4+ RA... that's pretty much the majority of decently-armoured targets in the game, no?

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The_Real_Chris

Post subject: [Army List] White Knights Titan Legion

Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 12:22 pm

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Nope, one because we are stuck with the stats for both and two because it is inferior verses AT targets unless you sustain at or advance at 6+/6+RA.

Funnily enough I don't throw Warhounds at heavy targets, I go and jump arty and similar stuff, essentially for me Warhounds are deep strike units.

As to the Warlord if I can't hit the enemy deployment zone best stick it on a reaver, so i can. Indeed one of those and two cannons, thats 100cm+ range when doubling, and I have moved it forward 40cm.

Yes it is better for a single turn, and what more it encourages tactics (doubling) that makes it even better and against decent armour/doubling it does twice as much damage.

Try it lots with assault tactics. If you want it to be an assault weapon see if your opponents can cope with heavy firepower charging reavers.

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: [Army List] White Knights Titan Legion

Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 12:27 pm

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As I said, I intend to have a go with the list tomorrow, and this weekend... if Chroma can put out a revised version in time.

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Chroma

Post subject: [Army List] White Knights Titan Legion

Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 1:04 pm

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(The_Real_Chris @ Dec. 05 2007,10:05)

QUOTE

On a different note with all this Plasma how do you fancy coming from Ryza?

Legio Crucius (Warmongers)
Forgeworld: Ryza
Demi-Legio (due to heavy losses)

Well, I never said anything about Ryza, just considered plasma on infantry to be the most "high tech" weapon load-out.

Because of the unfortunate precedent of plasma cannons being slow-firing in the main rulebook, I may wind up changing the Sagitarii to something else.

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Chroma

Post subject: [Army List] White Knights Titan Legion

Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 1:07 pm

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(Evil and Chaos @ Dec. 05 2007,11:27)

QUOTE

As I said, I intend to have a go with the list tomorrow, and this weekend... if Chroma can put out a revised version in time.

I'll be working on it...

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Ilushia

Post subject: [Army List] White Knights Titan Legion

Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 4:15 pm

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You could give the sagitarii 2 plasma guns. Or 2 heavy bolters and 2 lascannons or something. Or just 'Heavy Weapons' with a stat line of 2x 4+/4+. THat way you get around tieing them to specific weapons, as well, and can claim they're always armed with 'the heaviest man-portable weapons available to the forge world' or something like that.

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BlackLegion

Post subject: [Army List] White Knights Titan Legion

Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 6:14 pm

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Location: Leipzig, Germany, Europe, Sol III, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group, Virgo Supercluster, Universe

Some sugestions:

- Make Carapace mounts on Reaver and Warlord 3 Weapon Points. Up the points cost for both Titans to rulebook value.

- Veteran Princeps/Command Head only for Warlords because only the more senior Princeps are given the bigger Titans.

- Scrap the +2 Void Shield upgrade. I think it is to powerful. Instead add an Upgrade for all Battletitans: Power Redirection: -2 Void Shields, +5cm Speed. Can't be combined with Experimental Reactor or leaving a rating 3 weapon mount empty. Cost: Free

- Rubbel Claws: -5cm Speed, ignores dangerous terrain tests. Cost: Free

- Carapace Landing Pad/Fire Control Tower summarise the name to Fire Control Device. Upgrade for Warlords only. Cost: one Carapace mount.

- Plasma Cannon and Plasma Destructors only available for Warlords (only they have a reactor big enough to power such a beast). But even then you are only be able to mount two if this weapons. And if you mount two Plasma Destructors, only one can fire each turn.

For now out of the three proposals i like Chromas list design the most

On the non-Titan formations i will commend later.

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BlackLegion

Post subject: [Army List] White Knights Titan Legion

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 9:25 pm

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It seems i read the bit about the Centre Line Weapon Mounts in the old WD article about the AM1st Titanweapons wrong:

The Deathstike Cannon was just a general Macro Cannon (= Quake Cannon) and costs the same as a Macro Cannon.
Because it replaces the head it automatically comes with a Fire Control Tower or Fire Control Platform to house the crew and which used up a Carapace weapon mount, increases the total weapon grade of the titan by +2 and also comes with RELAY which enables the Titan to shoot indirectly with Macro Cannons, Multi-Launchers and Support Missiles.

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Ilushia

Post subject: [Army List] White Knights Titan Legion

Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 12:05 am

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The entire point of this list, as I understand it, is to make the AMTL function similar to the OGBM, which is to say: Pay points to buy bigger weapons or other upgrades. Giving Grade 3 carapace mounts more or less COMPLETELY undermines this functionality. Infact, this would make the Warlord substantially better then in any proposed list I've seen as it could then mount 3 support weapons at base, without any drawbacks at all! With a vet princept you could mount FOUR class 3 weapons! That'd be pretty nuts, even WITH class 3s having some drawbacks!

The CLP has pretty clearly shown that it is better then just a one-mount item. Costing it with points seems reasonable to me, given the power increase from 60cm direct-fire 9BP to 120cm indirect fire 6BP is pretty substantial. More sustains means more hits, and 120cm of range will hit anywhere on the board more or less under the majority of situations.

I do agree +2 Void Shields may be too good. This should probably come down to +1 Void Shield. Or possibly something like 'Hardened Shields: Titan gains Invulnerable Save. This save does not apply to void shields.' I think that'd be kinda neat, and not that swaying (On average it'll save you from 1 point of damage before a Warlord/Reaver dies, which doesn't seem that imbalancing to me really!)

I'm not terribly fond of attaching tons of special rules to weapon selection. As I understand it a large part of the point of this list is to get away from those special rules and to make picking weapons fairly simple but both more and less free then the core list.

I -really- don't see a point in restricting the access of Veteran Princepts, especially given they're what gives you special benefits. I rather like the idea of tieing most of the upgrades to them, to be honest, it feels right and means that going to class 3 weapons isn't a 'by default' option. You might WANT that extra 5cm movement or ability to cause crits more!

Edit: Hope this didn't come off sounding too acidic! o.o Really didn't mean to sound rude...

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Chroma

Post subject: [Army List] White Knights Titan Legion

Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 2:49 am

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(Ilushia @ Dec. 06 2007,23:05)

QUOTE

Edit: Hope this didn't come off sounding too acidic! o.o Really didn't mean to sound rude...

Nope, you've pretty much nailed a large portion of my idea.

So, what do you think of it?

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Ilushia

Post subject: [Army List] White Knights Titan Legion

Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 2:56 am

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I think the concept is very neat. The weapon stats need to be ironed out, but that pretty much so is true across just about every list right now! :laugh:

I really like the design, to be honest, it's very elegant and simple. The upgrades need to be carefully balanced on functionality, I suspect, though. Right now I'd say the +2 Void Shields are about the best bonus as they substantially increase the titan survival rate (especially against TK weapons!) But I think the others are pretty cool as well, if of debatable usefulness!

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