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Carapace Multilaser vote.
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Carapace Multilaser vote.
Vaaish
 Post subject: Carapace Multilaser vote.
PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 3:54 pm 
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The Necrons have *just* the pylon for AA.  Technically the Titan Legion also has the TBolt.  So its not correct to say no other options.  It IS correct to say one is much better value (CML>TBolts).


I'm sorry if I implied that with my statement, I mentioned earlier the tbolts but made the distinction that the CML is the only source of reliable on the board AA and flack attacks for the AMTL.

Relative scarcity of AA in the TL list should be one of the weaknesses of the list.

Why should it? It already has high cost, few activation, few options for AA and generally slow movement (outside of the warhounds). This seems like a rather arbitrary weakness to give them.

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clausewitz
 Post subject: Carapace Multilaser vote.
PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 5:00 pm 
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Because an army made up of Fearless War Engines needs to have some weaknesses (or it would be too good, otherwise why do most other armies have a limited percentage of the points available to spend on these units).

Low activation count is not enough on its own as a disadvantage.  Steel Legion can end up with similar numbers of activations (and those suffer from attrition to firepower from losses and BM).
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Vaaish
 Post subject: Carapace Multilaser vote.
PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 5:12 pm 
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Low activation count is not enough on its own as a disadvantage.

This is only one of the disadvantages I mentioned. They already have relatively scarce AA/short range ground AA and slow movement on platforms that can carry it.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Carapace Multilaser vote.
PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 5:13 pm 
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Weak AA was one of my design goals.

That's why one of the first units I removed from the v2 list was Hydras. As clausewitz says, the list needed weaknesses, and v2 had none.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Carapace Multilaser vote.
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 3:38 pm 
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I've been thinking about these again.

So anyways, I'm still uncertain as to the best way to go for this weapon, and I may still want to revert it to the old stats (the stats that did not win the vote), possibly with a slightly higher cost.

Thoughts?

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Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: Carapace Multilaser vote.
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 3:43 pm 
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I'm all for the older stats. How much is a "slightly" higher cost? I have no problem with things not being a multiple of 25.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Carapace Multilaser vote.
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 3:48 pm 
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I prefer 25pt divisions wherever possible.

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Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: Carapace Multilaser vote.
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 3:58 pm 
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So "slightly higher" means 50 points?

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Vaaish
 Post subject: Carapace Multilaser vote.
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 3:59 pm 
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I'd still like to keep the old stats for continuity with other ML. I don't want to see it go up in cost because AMTL costs are in multiples of 25. The CML isn't worth 50 points no matter how you look at it and breaking from multiples of 25 makes things messy with list construction.

Perhaps the CML could be limited to Warlords alone since the old beetlebacks had 4 carapace slots providing the mounting points for the laser batteries and reavers have no obvious locations for such batteries to be placed?

That would limit the AA options and remove the possibility of the irritatation BM for the most part by keeping the CML off the CC reavers.




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Carapace Multilaser vote.
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 4:05 pm 
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Quote: (Vaaish @ 17 Jul. 2009, 15:59 )

I'd still like to keep the old stats for continuity with other ML. I don't want to see it go up in cost because AMTL costs are in multiples of 25. The CML isn't worth 50 points no matter how you look at it and breaking from multiples of 25 makes things messy with list construction.

What if the CML stats were improved to:

2x AP4+ / AT5+ / AA5+, 30cm
- 50pts


Perhaps the CML could be limited to Warlords alone since the old beetlebacks had 4 carapace slots providing the mounting points for the laser batteries and reavers have no obvious locations for such batteries to be placed?

Warlords mounted them on the flag slots on the carapace, Reavers mounted them on the shoulders instead of shoulderpads.

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Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: Carapace Multilaser vote.
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 4:20 pm 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 17 Jul. 2009, 11:05 )

Quote: (Vaaish @ 17 Jul. 2009, 15:59 )

I'd still like to keep the old stats for continuity with other ML. I don't want to see it go up in cost because AMTL costs are in multiples of 25. The CML isn't worth 50 points no matter how you look at it and breaking from multiples of 25 makes things messy with list construction.

What if the CML stats were improved to:

2x AP4+ / AT5+ / AA5+, 30cm
- 50pts

Hmmm, that's a thought. I'd prefer to keep them with the old stats at 25 points, but I'd consider improved stats for 50.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Carapace Multilaser vote.
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 4:21 pm 
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They are after all considerably larger than other Multilaser models, such as that carried by the Sentinel.

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Vaaish
 Post subject: Carapace Multilaser vote.
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 4:24 pm 
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2x AP4+ / AT5+ / AA5+, 30cm

That could work. Just off the top of my head, you can fit in two cheap reavers (3x lasburner, 2x inferno carapace landing pad), a standard config warhound pack, a standard config warlord, and two sentinel detachments in there and have CML on all battle titans, a sacred banner, and a legate. Biggest loss is weapons selection on the titans so I think that forces a sacrifice for good AA cover between the other upgrades and better weapons systems. (though why better AP and not AA? this have to do with the AMTL bad AA thing? I think it would be more of a tough decision with AP/AT 5+ and AA 4+)




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Carapace Multilaser vote.
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 4:29 pm 
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Indeed, I'm still keen on poor AA coverage being a feature of the AMTL army list.

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Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: Carapace Multilaser vote.
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 4:36 pm 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 17 Jul. 2009, 11:29 )

Indeed, I'm still keen on poor AA coverage being a feature of the AMTL army list.

I'm okay with it. I thought every army is supposed to have a weakness.

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