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AMTL 3.08
BlackLegion
 Post subject: AMTL 3.08
PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 5:26 pm 
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(nealhunt @ Mar. 18 2008,14:09)
QUOTE

(BlackLegion @ Mar. 17 2008,20:34)
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Interesting tidbits from the past:
The Carapace Landing Pad was able to hold 4 Infantry stands (off course only Jumppack Infantry was of any use for assaults), 2 Land Speeders or two stands of Jetbikes. This was its only function! The Fire Control Tower/Platform (which came automatically with the Deathstrike Centreline Cannon, and ONLY with this cannon!)was used for indirect barrages.

When was this?  I don't recall either of those rules.

They way I remember SM2/TL the Fire Control Center/Tower gave some sort of increased to-hit capability (bonus to hit or reroll misses or something).  The Carapace Landing Pad provided a speeder (command speeder, iirc) that the titan could use for LoS for barrages.

SM1/Adeptus Titanicus i guess. I have copys of the WhiteDwarfs where this items where first mentioned and given rules for.

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PlushWombat
 Post subject: AMTL 3.08
PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 2:09 am 
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Greetings Evil and Chaos,

Just a few thoughts and a few quick questions for you.

The thoughts:

I've been playing around with weapon configurations that I favor when using Warlords and most of them come in at around 250 to 300 points per loadout...this seems to me work well in that the basic Warlord costs come in at around 950 to 1050 points. ?

For my style of play, this means that my Warlord point costs are pretty interchangable and it all boils down to the mission that the titan is designed to accomplish.

I like this and hope that the list continues to develop in this manner.

The questions:

Warlord Point Increase:

You have mentioned increasing the basic point cost of the Warlord. ?I think that some increase might be warranted....perhaps a 25 point increase...but certainly no more than 50 points. ?Past this point and I think you won't see many Warlords on the field of battle as everyone will once again gravitate towards the Reaver for the simple reason that it is the cheaper unit. ?Your thoughts on the matter?

Plasma Destructor Points Increase:

Once again, I can't really disagree with an increase, but I can't help but wonder if by doing so you will have priced the Destructor out of common use with the result that the common default weapon might become the triple turbo laser.

Have you considered increasing the range of the destructor to say 75 cm to give a reason to field Plasma Destructors?

Triple Turbo Lasers:

In the event that this weapon is not deployed in 40K, will it be removed from the list?

Quake Cannon 2 BP vs 3 BP:

I think that either way it should retain the MW status. ?If you do drop it back to 2 BP will you be dropping the cost bact to say 75 pts or even 50 pts?

Looking forward to hearing what you have to say..and once again..thanks for all the hard work!

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Gary
 Post subject: AMTL 3.08
PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 7:47 pm 
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First and most important... internal balance between Reaver and Warlord is off.


The balance does seem to be a bit off. But for some reason Reavers still look quite tempting to me (at least ones with cheap weapons). I guess they have a couple of things in their favour:

1) The 5cm extra move is quite significant I think, as so much of Epic is about being in the right place at the right time. 15cm move is dead slow, but 20cm is ... respectable. Doubling an extra 10cm to get guns in range, or doing a deperate march of an extra 15cm, is definitely a decent advantage.

2) You are also buying a bit of flexibility with a Reaver, in that you get something big, tough and titan shaped, but you might be able to afford another formation as well (at least if you don't go for a lot of expensive weapons). In an army that is always going to struggle for activations, this could be crucial. The Warlord might be a better deal, but if going for all Warlords and no Reavers means you are down by a couple of activations, perhaps you wouldn't want to.

So overall I agree that the balance looks a bit off, but I think it wouldn't need too much tweaking. It would be a shame to make Warlords so expensive that we hardly see them.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: AMTL 3.08
PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 7:55 pm 
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The balance does seem to be a bit off. But for some reason Reavers still look quite tempting to me (at least ones with cheap weapons). I guess they have a couple of things in their favour:


I agree that whilst the costs do look off at first sight, the Reaver is still a very attractive option; Most battle reports so far have featured Reavers.

The Warlord might be a better deal, but if going for all Warlords and no Reavers means you are down by a couple of activations, perhaps you wouldn't want to.

This is why I've yet to nudge the prices.

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ragnarok
 Post subject: AMTL 3.08
PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 7:58 pm 
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Having used the destructor  I really can't say it is worth 75pts.  It is a niche weapon designed to take out medium armour units (4+ of higher with no RA).

At 75pts I would take volcano cannons over it.  The reduced number of shots is more than ade up by the antiheavy armour/WE ability.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: AMTL 3.08
PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 7:58 pm 
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Plasma Destructor Points Increase:

Once again, I can't really disagree with an increase, but I can't help but wonder if by doing so you will have priced the Destructor out of common use with the result that the common default weapon might become the triple turbo laser.

Have you considered increasing the range of the destructor to say 75 cm to give a reason to field Plasma Destructors?


Currently, if you take a Plasma Destructor and a Plasma Blastgun, that gives the same firepower for the same cost as two Plasma Cannons, but extra range for four of your shots.

That is an obvious indication that the Plasma Destructor is too cheap. :D

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Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: AMTL 3.08
PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 8:21 pm 
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I haven't played v3.x yet, but for v2.1 I did find the Reaver to be an attractive choice. The lower point cost compared to a Warlord allowed me to take two Reavers as well as a good selection of supporting units. I anticipate being able to do the same with the current version.




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PlushWombat
 Post subject: AMTL 3.08
PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 8:22 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Mar. 19 2008,18:58)
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Plasma Destructor Points Increase:

Once again, I can't really disagree with an increase, but I can't help but wonder if by doing so you will have priced the Destructor out of common use with the result that the common default weapon might become the triple turbo laser.

Have you considered increasing the range of the destructor to say 75 cm to give a reason to field Plasma Destructors?


Currently, if you take a Plasma Destructor and a Plasma Blastgun, that gives the same firepower for the same cost as two Plasma Cannons, but extra range for four of your shots.

That is an obvious indication that the Plasma Destructor is too cheap. :D

Greetings Evil and Chaos,

We wombats are civilized and refined creatures who prefer to blast our opponents into lil bitty chunks from long range. :)

Translation...you may get the same number of shots for the same cost of a destructor and a blast gun, but that assumes that you would wish to close (or would be able to close) to 45 cm to take advantage of both weapons.

I still maintain that if you increase the cost of the Plasma Destructor to 75 points (without a range increase) ?you will by default eliminate it as a viable weapon ?of choice...its simply too expensive and too limited in its use to choose for the points versus the other available weapon choices.

Regards

PlushWombat

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Gary
 Post subject: AMTL 3.08
PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 8:29 pm 
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I really like how the list is coming on, it's looking good. So thanks for all the work.

I've been looking more at the Ordinatus Minoris and I think it's a bit overpriced.

With a Volcano cannon it's got basically the same firepower as a Shadowsword but is 25pts more expensive, despite being worse in engagements, easier to break and easier to kill.

If a Shadowsword received, say, 8 ordinary AT hits, an average of 2 of them would cause damage and (barring criticals) the tank would survive.

If the same 8 hits were directed at the Minoris, the first two would strip the shields. Of the remaining 6 an average of 2.66 would cause damage and the vehicle would be dead with some to spare.

The breaking with 2 blast markers is also a real weakness - they had a bad time with that (and some bad luck as well) in Tiny-Tim's battle report. You can shoot them once with anything, place a single blast marker, and then they break themselves unless then roll a 3+ to activate.

They have a few strong points (if you scrape the bottom of the barrel a bit  :D ):

1) Shields can replenish if you don't kill the Minoris off in one go.
2) It does take a minimum of four hits to kill a Minoris, and in theory only three for a Shadowsword (assuming no criticals and some truly awful saving throws). This might also be an advantage when facing TK weapons that cause multiple hits.
3) They have the flexibility to pick lots of different weapon options, so you can tailor them nicely in a way that you can't with a Shadowsword.
4) Umm ... their heavy bolters are twin-linked  :D

So I think they should probably come down to about 150 pts. The restriction of 1 per 1000pts is enough to stop people having hundreds of them running around.

What do you think, am I missing some hidden coolness?
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: AMTL 3.08
PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 8:53 pm 
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I started the Ordinatus Minoris at 150pts but raised it early on.

If they stop appearing so much in batreps (The normal sign that the unit is useless!) then I'll look into dropping their price back to 150pts... but for now, let them bed in.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: AMTL 3.08
PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 8:54 pm 
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I  still maintain that if you increase the cost of the Plasma Destructor to 75 points (without a range increase)  you will by default eliminate it as a viable weapon


Definitely noted.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: AMTL 3.08
PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:09 pm 
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Shush Rug, your last tournament game was terrible. :D


(Good point though)

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Gary
 Post subject: AMTL 3.08
PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:21 pm 
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AMTL has a higher strategy rating than Steel Legion and AMTL is more likely to have a spare SC re-roll kicking round for a 2+ activation (AMTL has few activations and mosts are 1+).


Yeah, good point. I hadn't thought of that. I imagine the Minoris will usually be armed with the big hitting or one shot weapons that you just have to get off at the right time, so those factors do help it out.

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Tiny-Tim
 Post subject: AMTL 3.08
PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 9:24 am 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Mar. 19 2008,19:53)
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... but for now, let them bed in.

I agree with this. At 150pts they were an automatic choice in my eyes, although I did muck up the weapon loads. At 175 they do become more of a option as they are eating more into my precious points.

I plan to test some other combinations before returning to the Minoris in a few battles time.

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